The Jesus Factor (video)

It is true. Name one civilization that didn't have a theocratic based government when it began, besides america.

jetsetlemming said:

It is true. Name one civilization that didn't have a theocratic based government when it began, besides america.

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I think America did ...

it just wasn't the Church of England, which is what they didn't want to be a part of.

look at a huge amount of our laws ... how many of them are based in Puritan ideals?

when the founding fathers created this country, and separated church and state, they didn't intend to remove God and religion from the government. The idea of not involving God in their daily lives was unheard of at the time.

look at our money, it says 'in God we trust' The pledge of Allegiance references God. Almost every one of our national songs pays homage in some form to God ...

PhilosophyGenius said:

Also, the bible and science contradict, so what we're seeing is the rolling back of scientific thinking in exchange for philosophy that's thousands of years old.

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not true.

They only contradict if you happen to subscribe to a faith that takes every word of the bible as the literal truth.

There are several Christian faiths that have no issues with science

jetsetlemming said:

It is true. Name one civilization that didn't have a theocratic based government when it began, besides america.

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But here's the point, most of those civilizations did not evolve when religion was involved.

And I take back what I said about religion and policits being mixed. Many govnt's around the world have no problem with it. It doesnt really matter to me as long as the govenrment doesnt impose there views on anyone else. Especially in America because one the main pillars of our govt is the seperation between church and state.

danceyogamom said:

not true.

They only contradict if you happen to subscribe to a faith that takes every word of the bible as the literal truth.

There are several Christian faiths that have no issues with science

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Here's an example of what I mean: Christian fundemntalist want to start introducing "intellegent design" into our schools right along side evolution. They belive the world was created in 7 days, and man right after. They don't belive in evolution. Stem cell research is another thing they don't like. And a few others.

PhilosophyGenius said:

Here's an example of what I mean: Christian fundemntalist want to start introducing "intellegent design" into our schools right along side evolution. They belive the world was created in 7 days, and man right after. They don't belive in evolution. Stem cell research is another thing they don't like. And a few others.

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There you go lumping all christians together... Its the most diverse religon on earth, and yet everybody likes to make lump statements about it...

jetsetlemming said:

There you go lumping all christians together... Its the most diverse religon on earth, and yet everybody likes to make lump statements about it...

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I didn't say all Christians, I said "Christian fundemntalists" (look up fundamentalist you don't know what it means). More specifically, I'm refereing to they type of fundementalists who want to impose there way of life and thinking on everyone else. I have no problem if someone is super religious, I think it's great. But I have a problem when senators or religious groups start going after Howard Stern, and now I'm gonna have to pay to listen to him. I mean these guys were about to go after the porn industry before 9/11. As a matter of fact, there going after porn right now. I didn't lump all Christians togther, i just critized the ones who claim to be morally superior than all of us and want to impose there views on society.

PhilosophyGenius said:

Here's an example of what I mean: Christian fundemntalist want to start introducing "intellegent design" into our schools right along side evolution. They belive the world was created in 7 days, and man right after. They don't belive in evolution. Stem cell research is another thing they don't like. And a few others.

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I'm aware of those beliefs, and I disagree with them.

however, I also happen to be a Christian, and I felt your original statement suggested all Christians felt that way.

danceyogamom said:

I'm aware of those beliefs, and I disagree with them.

however, I also happen to be a Christian, and I felt your original statement suggested all Christians felt that way.

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Do you agree that the world was created in 7 days, and that man and women where created right after?

To me, in religion, you either take the whole cake or not at all

And don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting you or anyone who is religous. I'm very religious myself. What I'm saying is, I don't appreciate someone imposing there religious beliefs on me.

The wonderful thing about Christianity is that there pretty much is no whole cake you've got to force down. There are so many sects and different enitities that you can have your own beliefs and not have everything decided for you. There are Christians (for the most part, it's the Protestant sects that offer all the diversity) that believe in science, that believe in evolution (as a tool of God), there are Chirstians that believe in (gasp!) free speech. The "whole cake" for Christianity is just belief in God, his power, and Jesus as the messiah. That is the absolute only lump statement you can make about Christians, because it's far too diverse a group to get anything else that fits every one of them (even the "fundamentalists").

PhilosophyGenius said:

Do you agree that the world was created in 7 days, and that man and women where created right after?

To me, in religion, you either take the whole cake or not at all

And don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting you or anyone who is religous. I'm very religious myself. What I'm saying is, I don't appreciate someone imposing there religious beliefs on me.

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I think the question is ... how can a mere mortal like me possibly grasp the concept of time as it applies to God?

a day to me is 24 hours. There have been several different measurements of time throughout humanity's history ... why would God be on the same time clock as DYM, living in the central time zone?

Moses lived to be over 500 ... but of course, they measured their years differently.

stories have been used as teaching tools for as long as humanity has been communicating. Aesop's lessons are no less valuable even if the story itself isn't 100% true.

no different with Genesis.

danceyogamom said:

I think the question is ... how can a mere mortal like me possibly grasp the concept of time as it applies to God?

a day to me is 24 hours. There have been several different measurements of time throughout humanity's history ... why would God be on the same time clock as DYM, living in the central time zone?

Moses lived to be over 500 ... but of course, they measured their years differently.

stories have been used as teaching tools for as long as humanity has been communicating. Aesop's lessons are no less valuable even if the story itself isn't 100% true.

no different with Genesis.

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very good point, but you belive that dinosours existed? or that evolution occured? cuz supposedly God created man right after earth

and also, there are factual errors in the bible. there were no slaves in Egypt and the egyptian army was never destroyed.

:jesusdanc ...:jesusdanc ...:jesusdanc

PhilosophyGenius said:

very good point, but you belive that dinosours existed? or that evolution occured? cuz supposedly God created man right after earth

and also, there are factual errors in the bible. there were no slaves in Egypt and the egyptian army was never destroyed.

:jesusdanc ...:jesusdanc ...:jesusdanc

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of course I believe in dinosaurs. I use fossil fuels don't I?

I'm Catholic, not a fundamentalist. I don't take the bible literally, it isn't part of the Catholic dogma. (I should also state here that I don't believe in a huge amount of Catholic dogma either. Most of the rules were made by men to suit their own purposes. They have little to do with God or the teachings of Jesus)

of course there are factual errors in the bible ... most people don't consider the politial motivations behind compiling the books.

originally every tribe had an arc, and there was a political advantage to change it to one arc - so the language of the testament was changed in order to suit the needs of the time.

this happens throughout the bible.

Jesus wasn't born on December 25. It was already a large holy day and co-opting the day and some of the rituals convinced more Gentiles to convert. Same thing with Easter.

The Virgin Mary was made into a much bigger symbol as Christianity moved through Europe to attract the mother goddess worshipers.

books were left out of the new testament because they didn't suit the ideals of a unified church. specific concepts from the old testament were made more prominent, as other concepts were downplayed.

it is all about cultural, political and power developments of the church and society

danceyogamom said:

of course I believe in dinosaurs. I use fossil fuels don't I?

I'm Catholic, not a fundamentalist. I don't take the bible literally, it isn't part of the Catholic dogma. (I should also state here that I don't believe in a huge amount of Catholic dogma either. Most of the rules were made by men to suit their own purposes. They have little to do with God or the teachings of Jesus)

of course there are factual errors in the bible ... most people don't consider the politial motivations behind compiling the books.

originally every tribe had an arc, and there was a political advantage to change it to one arc - so the language of the testament was changed in order to suit the needs of the time.

this happens throughout the bible.

Jesus wasn't born on December 25. It was already a large holy day and co-opting the day and some of the rituals convinced more Gentiles to convert. Same thing with Easter.

The Virgin Mary was made into a much bigger symbol as Christianity moved through Europe to attract the mother goddess worshipers.

books were left out of the new testament because they didn't suit the ideals of a unified church. specific concepts from the old testament were made more prominent, as other concepts were downplayed.

it is all about cultural, political and power developments of the church and society

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Good points, you certainly know your stuff. But back to my original argument:

I don't want religious politicians and judges imposing there religious views on me and many people agree with that. I don't want creationsim taught in science classes along with evolution. I don't want religious groups or senators telling me what is indecent based on there supposledly high moral standards. And I'm sure you agree with me on this, that it's certainly not right how gays are unfairly bashed and told there sinners. I mean there's even a group called "God hates fags".

Most of all, I really don't appreciate how religious fundementalist are telling people like me that I'm gonna go to hell because I don't belive in Jesus or thier God. It doesnt neccessaraly piss me off, but I just think that they feel there better and morally superior than everyone else when there really not. Everyone is equal no matter what religion.

I'm sure you feel me on that

P.S. I dont think being a Christian (or being a religious person) mean your automatically a fundementalist

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=fundamentalist

Fundamentalist:

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

1. <LI type=a>often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement