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Thread: Another Indicting 9/11 Smoking Gun Found - Plane Impact Time Discrepancies

  1. #1
    somebigguy Guest

    Another Indicting 9/11 Smoking Gun Found - Plane Impact Time Discrepancies

    Another Indicting 9/11 Smoking Gun Found - Plane Impact Time Discrepancies

    The facts are simple yet extremely powerful for what they mean: US Government complicity in 9/11/01. They are a smoking gun.

    What is presented here is no theory. It is factual data of “impact times” from Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University (LDEO) that differs significantly from the actual impact times as given in the 9/11 Commission’s Final Report.

    LDEO
    Link: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html
    (note: all times precise to plus or minus 1 to 2 seconds)

    9/11 Commission Timeline
    Link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
    (note: both impact times are the only ones on the page precise to the second)

    The data:

    [“Impact Times”]
    LDEO
    8:46:26 and 9:02:54

    [Actual Impact Times]
    9/11 Commission
    8:46:40 and 9:03:11

    Respective Differences
    14 seconds
    17 seconds

    After reflecting upon these timing discrepancies and what they mean, indicting evidence appears that challenges the official explanation. America still owes it to those who perished, and their families and friends, to serve justice on those responsible.

    Both impacts are important. This happened twice, and comparing LDEO versus the 9/11 Commission Report, there are similar time disparities (differences of 14 and 17 seconds). Consider these differences as extremely reliable, because when you consider the seismic wave, amplitude, and duration, the dominant period is extremely short and occurs near the beginning of the signal.

    We have LDEO stating times of plus or minus 1 to 2 seconds, a high degree of precision. Would they publish if a 95% level of confidence had not been achieved for the data? No. LDEO was then, and still is, a prestigious scientific entity; and no one has challenged their data for 9/11/01. We should trust their seismic data.

    Is there any expected time delay between the initiation of the "impact" pulse and the reception of the seismic signal? This factor is already accounted for in the software logic used. Besides, if this were a factor, it would make the disparity greater, thereby yielding even greater time differences; however, the differences we have already are compelling.

    Two questions:
    (1) Is there a motive behind having two sets of impact times?
    (2) What is the significance, if any, of having two different sets of impact times?

    Addressing Question (1): Motive probably had nothing to do with our now having two different sets of impact times; also, more than likely, no one lied in all this with the information each entity published. Probably the 9/11 Commission made a simple error of missed oversight. They should have noticed the disparity in impact times and looked into the matter. This is their error. They never saw the disparities, or, if they did, they never attempted to resolve them. Then, years later, somebody happened to notice them by chance. The Commission either did not care, did not bother to ask LDEO, did not consider it at all, or, more than likely, was not even aware of the Lamont-Doherty seismic data regarding “impact times”. If they had known, someone at the Commission would surely have envisioned possible future repercussions of having two sets of factual data on impact times (such as is happening now). This would be (and now is) a conflict of data from two highly reliable sources—something that is to be avoided in one’s life and affairs.

    The problem probably came about by having two different groups of people working during two different time periods. They happened to intersect on a single data point (aircraft impact time). It was the Commission who did the intersecting as LDEO was published long before the Commission came into being. LDEO did their job on 9/11 and believed at the time that their seismic data, precise to the second, represented the impacts on the towers (this is key because what they thought were “impacts” is now brought into question). Another key here is “at the time”. Think about it. LDEO had these two small seismic spikes at the general time of the impacts, so they must have naturally thought they were the impacts. This is understandable, especially in the light of that horrible day.

    However, the 9/11 Commission’s precision times came much later, at a different time period, and only after much analysis and effort. They are based upon: "We have determined that the impact time was 9:03:11 based on our analysis of FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic." [9/11 Commission Report, pg 460, Note 130]:

    http://www.insightful.com/infact/911...t_470_460.html
    (Note 130 is the basis for WTC1 & WTC2 precision impact times to the second)



    This is an entirely different set of data than LDEO, but it is highly accurate and precise; e.g., consider the technology needed and used in the space program; and although different, the technologies are similar in many ways; and one critical way they are similar is both must be precise in the area of timing; and so they are. It is known that the FAA tracked AA Flight 11 under four different stations using Primary Radar Return, and all times were recorded to the second.

    So, this is probably how these two extremely precise but different data sets came into being for the same event (plane impact) and appear before us now. However, it does not matter how they came into being. What is important is that both sets are precise to the second.

    Also important is: Are the two data sets correct?

    As pointed out above, the LDEO set should be correct. The 9/11 Commission’s set should be trustworthy as well because both entities came up with their conclusive data under similar conditions and constraints: required, high precision parameters; working in the face of high visibility in the wake of a national tragedy; and the general understanding of what these entities were attempting to do (i.e., to get it right). There is no reason to disbelieve either data set.

    Addressing Question (2): What is the significance, if any, of the different impact times?
    Yes, there is significance and it goes to the heart of the issue.

    The Commission Report must have the correct impact times because they were specifically looking at flight data that ultimately ended at precise terminations when the towers were struck. There is no question: AA Flight 11 died exactly at 8:46:40 and UA Flight 175 at 9:03:11 [EDT]. So, if the planes impacted the towers at those times, what were the earlier times noted by LDEO due to notable seismic spikes (14 and 17 seconds earlier)?

    What first caught my eye last week about this was the implausibility of “impact times” by LDEO. I thought, “How can such a huge jet airliner impact WTC1 above the 90th floor and we end up with energy transference traveling all the way down to the earth (even through the massive multi-level sub-basement structure) sufficiently so as to be picked up by LDEO as a seismic spike?” This should not be; energy from the impact should have been mostly absorbed by the building’s immense structure and mass.

    Then I recalled reading a while back about accounts of people who experienced explosions down in the basements before the planes struck. The following is an excerpt about one of them, an eyewitness at WTC1 by the name of William Rodriguez:

    http://www.newswithviews.com/Spingola/deanna17.htm

    -------
    Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at that same time. As he was discussing the day’s tasks with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were an additional twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

    At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. “When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking.” said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, his supervisor for the American Building Maintenance Company.

    Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the tower at about the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion’s resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: “I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building.” He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.
    -------

    This provides the plausible answer as to what LDEO picked up as a seismic spike moments before the planes struck the towers.

    There are only two logical choices: either a true seismic event (a very small earthquake tremor; and, yes, this would mean the eyewitnesses who said explosions happened before the plane struck are not telling the truth), or a very large explosion(s).

    It could not have been a very small earthquake. Why? Because this same scenario happened again a few minutes later at WTC2; both spikes occurred within a brief 15-minute period under the most unusual circumstances. The odds of this happening by chance go beyond realms of possibility. This only happens when man is involved.

    The earlier seismic spikes had to have been very large explosion(s). Middle Eastern terrorists could not have been responsible since they do not have the wherewithal on this kind of a scale.

    It is more than remarkable that the 9/11 Commission, although it had hear the testimony of William Rodriguez regarding the explosions in the basements, did not deem this important enough to be included in the Final Report.

    It should have been.

    So, this is what happened:

    Explosion(s) Meant to Coincide……………
    [“Impact Times”]
    LDEO
    8:46:26 and 9:02:54

    Respective Differences
    14 seconds
    17 seconds

    With

    ……………Planes Impacting Towers
    [Actual Impact Times]
    9/11 Commission
    8:46:40 and 9:03:11

    The explosions were probably done to prepare the buildings for controlled demolition later by implosion.

    This is no conspiracy theory.
    This is not theory.
    These are facts.

    It is definitely conspiracy.

    What must be done? Two things:

    (1) A new independent, quasi-private-public, non-politicized 9/11 investigation must be formed at once to approach and pursue this for what it really is: the crime of the century. Good detective work is what is needed—the conspirators must be identified, apprehended, jailed, and brought to justice as soon as possible.

    (2) The 9/11 Commission and the Bush Administration must answer this question:

    WHAT CAUSED THESE SEISMIC SPIKES BEFORE THE PLANE IMPACTS?

    They must answer, they must answer now—and if they do not, it is the same as an admission of guilt.

    A rogue element of conspirators with the US Government committed mass murder, treason, and betrayal to America on September 11, 2001.

    God help us.
    Craig T. Furlong
    Huntington Beach, CA USA
    July 31, 2006

    PS Please forward this far and wide

  2. #2
    YouCrazyDiamond Guest
    http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~richards/my_papers/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf

    This report (above link) from the people at LDEO indicates that the seismic waves traveled 34 km at about 2 km/sec, which would then take about 17 seconds (+/- 1 seconds).

    However, this report also states that “Computed origin times and seismic magnitudes are listed in Figure 1.”

    In other words, the seismograms shown in figure 1 have been corrected to the local time at the WTC.

    This interpretation is also supported by the column heading ‘origin time (UTC)’ on this page:

    http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

    And so the first airplane impact occurring at 8:46:40 (WTC local time) will be at about the 30 second mark in the (red) inset of figure 1; this assumes that the LDEO people have marked the time 8:46:26 (WTC local time) as the beginning of relatively large amplitude ground motion (visible on the seismogram) at about the 17 second mark in this same (red) inset in figure 1.

    This seems like the most reasonable interpretation: a) the times on the seismograms at PAL have been corrected to the local time at WTC (‘origin time’) and b) the time stamp for the first impact at 8:46:26 is a reference to the first signs (on the seismogram) of relatively large amplitude ground motion at the WTC.

    Somebody should contact the authors of this report to verify that this is indeed the correct interpretation.
    ____________________

    It should also be pointed out that searching the 9/11 Commission Report on the word ‘seismic’ gives six hits, all of them relating to flight 93 (if I read it correctly).

    http://www.9-11commission.gov/

    http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

    This lack of honest and open consideration of relevant seismic data would then qualify as another omission in the 9/11 Commission Report. Whether it is an accidental or intentional omission is not obvious, but it is nonetheless an egregious omission.

    This is an omission that common sense would dictate must be addressed, at the very least, in a timely and honest manner.

  3. #3
    borepstein Guest
    Good comment.

    In fact, these differences (given they are merely in seconds) can, in my opinion, be attributed to complications and variance in the wave propagation through the ground, etc.

  4. #4
    YouCrazyDiamond Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by borepstein
    In fact, these differences (given they are merely in seconds) can, in my opinion, be attributed to complications and variance in the wave propagation through the ground, etc.
    Read the report at the first link in my post above. Here is that link again:

    http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~richards/my_papers/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf

    According to the ‘experts’ at LDEO there was a +/- 1 second window (known as the ‘uncertainty’) in the arrival time of the seismic waves at PAL that originated at the WTC on 9/11.

    If you doubt this level of precision in calibrating the times between PAL and the WTC, then take it up with the ‘experts’ at LDEO who wrote that report.

    While we are at it, make sure that the 2 second uncertainty they claim on these 'origin times' is in fact a window that can be described mathematically as '+/- 1 second,' which is read as 'plus or minus one second.'


  5. #5
    borepstein Guest
    Thanks.

    In this case, this point is valid. I simply don't have enough expert knowledge to judge either way.

    Personally, I tend to think that even without this there is plenty to declare the official theory null and void.

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