Amnesty Slams Israel

[Partridge]

Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land is fucking awesome video. It's one of the ones our Palestine Solidarity group made many copies of to give away. Thanks for the link DSM, I didn't know it was on the net. I'll put it in the next YBBS video update. Some other good videos are Palestine: People & the Land and Palestine is Still the Issue (by John Pilger) both of which are in the YBBS Collection.

I find the 'If Americans Knew' site to be generally reliable (its information on death tolls, money, etc are not their own, they come from official and/or NGO sources), and some of its original reports etc are fascinating (especially the Network News Coverage of the Conflict report [PDF]). And I have to say, while I'm not generally a fan of the likes of BBC or Irish state TV's (RTE) reporting on the conflict they are infinitely better than what I've seen on US news. For example, on the 2nd or 3rd Anniversary of the second intifada, I was watching either CNN or ABC, and the story was:

"Today marks the 2nd Anniversary of the Palestinian Intifada in which over 300 Jews have died."

I waited, in vain, for the Palestinian casualties. By that stage there were about 1000 dead Palestinians. They were not fit to mention. Bias? What bias? I guess I'm just one of those incurable anti-semities.

ER: It is sad that anyone has died in this conflict. But is really infantile to say 'I don't care about Palestinians because Jews have been killed'. That is really no different than saying 'I don't care how many Afghanis are killed because Christians [along with everyone else] were killed on 911'. Or Hiroshima was justified by Pearl Harbour. Or if I was to say 'I don't care about Jews because Palestinians have been killed' (and in far greater numbers).

Almost four times as many Palestinians have been killed than Israel. When it comes to children, 121 Israeli children have been killed by terrorist. 722 Palestinian children have been killed by State terrorists! It's bordering on demoagoguery to post a picture of a dead woman and her family and insinuate 'this proves you're wrong' or (worse) 'this proves you hate Jews'.

The only thing it proves is that Israel/Palestine is in a fucking mess - and the only way I can see to end it is to end the occupation (its illegal anyway), re-route the wall (so that it doesn't steal any more Palestinian land - the land with the water basins co-incidently enough), ensure that Palestinian soverignty truly exists (ie self control of borders, airspace, import-export laws), ensure full democratic rights (in fact as well as in law) for the Arab population of Israel, also Israel should withdraw from the Golan Heights (Syria) and the Sheba Farms (Lebanon). That leaves the tricky issue of the right of return for the refugees. I don't have a solution to that one - but showing some good faith by ending the occupation and the creation of a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank (INCLUDING Jordan Valley), Gaza and East Jerusalem can only be a good thing in that respect.

Thumper: I don't know what underground Israeli radio you listen to (Barry Chamish maybe) - but there are some very good organisations in Israel dedicated to civil and human rights for the Arab population, and for an end to the occupation. Also there are groups who campaign for an end to the racism among different coloured Jews (White, Middle Eastern and Ethiopian). These are the people that should be supported in Israel - not the warmongering butchers in government and their cheerleaders in the Zionist Lobby who use the historic suffering of the Jewish people for their own infliction of suffering on the Palestinian masses. Of course Arab leaders also use the Palestinians in a similar way to demonise Jews, and this is also disgusting to me.

I'm going to Palestine in October for 10 days to meet with various groups, both Palestinians and Israeli, and generally just to see the place. Not your average holiday I'll grant you, but I think it will be infinitely more interesting than spending two weeks at a beach resort getting drunk and leering at women (which is what most of my mates will be doing). I'm going to try to get a video camera and make some kind of documentary.

[thumper]

If the Illuminati wants to destroy Jeruselem, then why, oh why, does the American media so blantantly favor Israel. And why are all the former American Presidents since the mid 1900's incredibly biased towards Israel. Clinton said he would die for them, this President said he would go to war for them...and so forth.

uh, what do you call half of Jerusalem soon to be given to the muslims?

[Partridge]

soon to be given to the muslims?

Soon to be given to the Muslims???????????????????????

Oh my god, you are ignorant. The Arabs (Muslim, Jew, Christian) have 'owned' Jerusalem for the last 1000+ years. Ever hear of thing called the Crusades? Fought to 'liberate the holy land from the oriental hordes'. Funny, first thing the Western Christians did when they got there was slaughter everyone they could get their hands on - be they man, woman, child, indigenous christian, muslim, or indeed jew. That was the First Crusade.

(The second crusade was not quite so successful, Sal-ah-din basically trounced them - but there were no such slaughters by this 'arab barbarian'. And for the third crusade, well the holy crusaders didn't even make it to Palestine, so they just sacked Constantinople [the Eastern Christian Church) instead).

Jerusalem (al-Quds) has been an Arab city basically since Arabs were around. The Israelis only occupied East Jerusalem (the Old City) in 1967 after the Six Day War. Really, who did you think had been living there all those years? An enclave of White Europeans? Jesus.

For fucks sake, Israel didn't even exist until after the 1948 War, its barely 60(!) years old. During that 'War of Independence' (if you're a Zionist) or 'The Catastrophe' (if you're Palestinian), 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled under threat of violence (quite a lot were killed too) from what became Israel. Dier Yassin is probably the most (in)famous massacre of Palestinian villagers during that period, but there are others.

And I was talking earlier about groups that work within Israel - one of my favourites is a small group of people who place signs where Palestinian towns and villages used to stand. The signs are always promptly removed, but I love the idea of making people face up to the horrible history of Israel's foundation.

East Jerusalem belongs to the Arabs (5% of the Palestinian population is Christian by the way), and I would argue should be open to anyone else (Euro-Jew, Hindu, Buddist, Atheist, etc etc) that wants to live there under Palestinian control.

[thumper]

let's assume you're right for the sake of argument.

but what i'm arguing is not from the position of moral 'righteousness', but rather practicality.

kinda like what lecture by Myron Fagan, who asked the rhetorical question: "how does the US lose in all manners of major negotiations with other nations when from a position of supreme military and economic dominance?"

i ask the same thing about Israel submitting to the arabs.

and i think you should also get hip to the what the Israelis have to endure as well. please listen to this radio broadcast:

http://www.israelnationalradio.com/

and listen to Tamar Yonah

[Partridge]

I've been studying and following the situation in Israel/Palestine for over six years now. It's one of my main interests. You think I don't know what happens when a suicide bomb goes off? Or when a Qassam finds a target?

But Israel National Radio (I had no idea this is what you were referring to when you said 'underground' - I assumed you were referring to progressive secularist radio like radio indymedia israel, not rightwing religious zealots) is not a source I would have any confidence in. They are just cheerleaders for the 'Greater Israel' project - that is the explusion of all the Palestinians into Jordan or Syria. They are the same people behind that Arutz Sheva INN website. You might as well tell me that the National Vanguard are the authentic voice of the American People.

kinda like what lecture by Myron Fagan, who asked the rhetorical question: "how does the US lose in all manners of major negotiations with other nations when from a position of supreme military and economic dominance?"

i ask the same thing about Israel submitting to the arabs.

What exactly does this mean? When has the US (or Israel for that matter) 'lost a major negotiation' on the international arena? To take Israel, Israel is currently in violation of at least 64 UN Resolutions, mostly to do with the Occupation. The World Court has deemed the Wall a violation of International Law, and Israel has never seen sight nor sound of a single UN Weapons Inspector despite its massive nuclear program. Since Hamas have been elected, there have been what maybe 10 Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorist groups. In that time 132 Palestinians have been killed by the IDF (maybe 10 or 15 have been killed in factional fighting between Fatah/PLO and Hamas). But Hamas and the Palestinians generally are the ones that are having their funding cut off!

Oh yeah, Israel are the big losers here aren't they?

[thumper]

this lecture will answer all:

Part 1 http://www.apfn.org/audio/fagan-one.mp3
Part 2 http://www.apfn.org/audio/fagan-two.mp3
Part 3 http://www.apfn.org/audio/fagan-three.mp3
Part 4 http://www.apfn.org/audio/fagan-four.mp3
Part 5 http://www.apfn.org/audio/fagan-five.mp3
Part 6 http://www.apfn.org/audio/fagan-six.mp3

[PhilosophyGenius]

Partridge, once again, right on the money.