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Pro-Israel ?? I'm a Jew and I'm not particularly Pro-Israel. Conservative Judaism does not believe in the Zionist movement, but Jews love Israel for what it represents as a Holy Land.
I think the Israeli Defense Department and Mossad are true scumbags, doing worse than the kind of stuff that Rumsfeld & Cheney pull. My beliefs are that a bunch of war criminals are running the government of Israel - Ariel Sharon was the Godfather.
As far as 9/11 - Sure Israel was involved ... to some degree. But I think the Saudi's and the Bush's are involved too. It's a battle of Good vs Evil -- not Jews against Muslims.
Of course, who really knows what happened on 9/11 .... maybe it was Hillary Clinton and Rudy Guiliani pulling those towers that day. I don't trust the Clintons anymore.
Easily because a lot of hardcore religious Jews are agaist the state of Israel for there policies and the fact that it isn't God's will for the Jewish people to have a state yet or something along those lines.
i've heard of those guys... something nutrakardi?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosophyGenius
anyway, i think they expect the Jews to be 'delivered' into the holy land perhaps through supernatural forces, and that particular deliverence is construed by many to be the six day war.
i dunno guys. i've been listening to Tamar Yonah and you really get the feeling that Israel isn't running things at all, but rather being run into the ground.
i think the illuminati has taken over that country too.
Illuminati will take over everything eventually :(
http://www.nkusa.org/
I heard a short interview with Rabbi Ahron Cohen of NKUSA, I think his views on Iran are quite niave (though he has talked to these people, I haven't), but certainly his view on Israel is worth listening to:
AC: We propogate the philosophy of Orthodox Jewish opposition to Zionism, and we believe that the whole State of Israel is flawed both on grounds of Jewish religious belief and on Jewish values of humanitarianism. Bearing in mind that it was based right from the beginning on overlooking the interests of the indigenous population in Palestine. And really, if one is honest, if one goes right back to the roots of the problem in the Middle East - the whole strife, the whole confrontation in the Middle East has only been brought about by the very existence of this State of Israel. I am convinced that there will never ever be peace in the Middle East as long as the State of Israel exists.
Questioner: Does that mean, like some Muslim fundamentalists say, that peace will only be brought about by the destruction of Israel.
AC: No, no. We pray and we hope that the State of Israel should be peacefully, but totally, dismantled. But peacefully. We don't advocate violence in any way, but it is feasible for it to be done peacefully. In teh saem way for instance as the Apartheid Regime in South Africa came to an end peacefully. Nobody ever believed that...
Questioner: Well the regime may be ended, but not the State itself?
AC: Well yes, but the concept of the State, for instance in South Africa, is now different. In the same way, there might be a different regime or state in Palestine - but with a totally different concept. Not a sectarian state for Jews.
Questioner: Not a religious state?
AC: Well, its not a religious state now either. It's a sectarian state. It's a state set up, anti-religious actually, but is a sectarian state set up for Jews - and overlooking the fact that there are other people there. Now of the whole thing is rehashed, there could be a number of scenarios that could be; it could be a democratic state where everybody has a vote, one vote for one person whether they're Palestinian or Jewish. there could be an Islam[ic] State, like in Iran. In Iran, the Jews have perfect freedom to live their lives as they wish. The myth that the Iranians are antisemitic is totally wrong, they're not anti-semitic at all. They're very very anti-Zionist, but not anti-semitic. the two are different things.
Questioner: Yeah, because this is the statement by Ahmedinejad...
AC: Yes, his statement has to be taken literally rather than projecting what he means. He said the State of Israel should be wiped off the map - he meant literally what it means, that it should no longer be on the maps. I don't think he meant, he's no fool, he did not mean the physical destruction. He met members of our group in New York. Very very affable, very upstanding. In fact I would say we were the only people in New york that received him cordially. [laughs] He was in New York recently and we had a meeting with him, he has no wish to... he has no problem with Jews. He has a problem with Zionism. And we met members of the Jewish community in Iran, they live their lives, full Jewish lives... it needs developing... I even asked very high authorities if we could establish a Yeshiva, a Jewish religious seminary - they have Islamic semiaries - we asked can we establish in Iran a high standard Jewish religious seminary? No problem whatsoever.
Questioner: Last question, the state of affaris in Gaza. Now the State of Israel says it was an accident, the Beit Hanoun [Partridge: massacre of 19 members of one family while sleeping]
AC: Whether it was an accident, whether it was not an accident, you have to go back to the roots of the problem. Had there not been a State of Israel there would not have beena confrontation, there wouldn't have been a Lebanon [conflict], there wouldn't have been a Gaza [conflict], tens of thousands of people, both Jewish and Palestinian would still be alive.
Alos, another anti-Zionist Jewish religious group is http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ .
anywho, here's what I'm talking about.
http://www.israelnn.com/metafiles/as...al-rallies.asx
Israel doesn't run things, at least in the religious sense.
Jews aren't allowed to pray on the temple mount because it offends muslims, and yet when the overwhelming majority is against a gay pride parade, it still goes ahead.
perhaps this all validates the idea that Israel is a secular state, rather than a religious one.
yes i've heard this before.
it would seem that Israel was formed with evil intentions by evil people. perhaps it's for the sole reason of tricking the christian community when the end times come, and the anti-christ reveals himself from Jerusalem?
then again, if you watch the mysterious origins of America documentry on google video, with Dr. Stan Monteith, you'll see that America was the same deal. it was the "Mystery Atlantis" that would one day dominate the world.
the power to control governments is given onto satan, hence his deal with Jesus in the desert. I couldn't give you my shirt if it wasn't mine.
at the end of the day, i'm not sure what it all means. should we be fatalistic because that's what's predicted in the bible? or should we be concerned with human rights across the board? not to say that two are mutually exclusive. i just don't know :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partridge
Why are you linking to this crap? This is Settler Radio - the radio/tv/website of Arutz Sheva (Channel 7)/Israel National News - the mouthpiece of the Ideological Settler Movement (the same fuckers who glassed a human rights worker the other day). The offices for this propaganda group is located in an illegal settlement outside Ramallah - Ramallah is in P.A.L.E.S.T.I.N.E., not Israel. Maybe you don't think that's relevant? Maybe it's not in the particular context of this discussion, but it's worth pointing out for others who may not know much about Arutz Sheva and their neo-frontiersmen ideology. This station is to the Settler Movement what FOX News is to the Neo-cons.Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper
Now, I only listned to the first five minutes or so of it. It seemed to be concered with an anti-Gaza 'disengagement' protest from last year. What exactly is your point in posting this? Under international law (and indeed, basic fucking decency) these settlements of 8,000 Israelis within the Occupied Territory of Gaza were illegal. These people had no right to be there, and were finally removed after something like 30 years of illegal occupation. A small victory for the Palestinians. However, there are still 400,000 illegal settlers occupying the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Let's be clear, instead of linking me to INN (as you've done several times in the past), please clarify YOUR position on this. Do you support the Settler Movement and their attempts to colonise [what's left of] Palestine? No evasion as to what is or isn't Palestine - Palestine, as defined by international law, is the territories occupied by Israel after the 1967 war (West Bank - including Jordan Valley and East Jerusalem - and the Gaza Strip).
Actually, its far more complicated than that. Many Rabbis say that Jews are not allowed on the Temple Mount, for religious reasons to do with the Holy of Holies. Others (mainly from the rightwing of Judaism) argue otherwise. I'm not a Jew, nor do I have much interest in the Jewish religion, so I don't know the ins and outs of it. Personally, I think Jews should have the right to pray on Temple Mount if they wish. However, lets be clear about this, Temple Mount (once again), is in OCCUPIED East Jerusalem - and I find it hard to believe that any resolution to this issue of religious freedom can come about while the occupation remains in place.Quote:
Jews aren't allowed to pray on the temple mount because it offends muslims, and yet when the overwhelming majority is against a gay pride parade, it still goes ahead.
The second part of your argument is a non-sequitur. What has a gay pride march got to do with Temple Mount? Homosexuality is legal in Israel, and homosexuals are allowed to hold demostrations under Israeli law. The wishes of a bunch of crazed Jewish and Muslim clerics don't nullify this fact (interestingly, gay-hate seemed to have briefly united rightwing Islam and rightwing Judaism for this demonstration). As it was, the march was re-routed, but there was still violence by anti-gay Jews in the week leading up to it and a small confrontation at the demo - thankfully, unlike last year's World Pride event, no-one was killed this year. If I remember correctly, there was even a 'holy war' declared on the police by an ultra-Orthodox Rabbical court. However, I really doubt that the "overwhelming majority" of Israelis were opposed to the march, though I may be wrong on that point - not that it matters because even if they were, homosexuals still have the right to march.
Israel is Jewish and Zionist state. In fact that's what Zionism means, creating a Jewish State, ethically, culturally and religiously. The thing is, Judaism is split into three main camps, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. In 1948 700,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from what became the State of Israel in order to preserve the 'Jewish nature' of the State. And now Israel's new Deputy-PM is calling for the ethnic cleansing of the rest of the Arabs from Israel (that is, pre-1967 Israel as demarcated by the 1967 Green Line), and the annexation of the illegal settlements in Palestine, (ahem) 'in return'.Quote:
perhaps this all validates the idea that Israel is a secular state, rather than a religious one.
a) I don't think those who founded Israel were particularly 'evil' (I don't think Hitler or Stalin, or Mao, or George Bush are evil either, because evil is a concept I don't believe in). As I said above, and said many times elsewhere on this site, Israel was founded by Zionists (largely secular, and quasi-socialist), based upon the explusion of Palestinains from their homeland. In my opinion, this was wrong both from a moral standpoint, and from the standpoint of fighting anti-semitism.Quote:
it would seem that Israel was formed with evil intentions by evil people. perhaps it's for the sole reason of tricking the christian community when the end times come, and the anti-christ reveals himself from Jerusalem?
b) If you're using the Bible as a source on modern history and current politcial events, then what can I say? I'm dumbfounded that in 2006 that kind of thing still exists.