newbie 9/11 question: to what extent does "Zionism" play a role?

[thumper]

I see this brought up from time to time

[PhilosophyGenius]

Zionism:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

I think it was Sharon who said the attacks were "good for Israel" because Americans would support them more, and they would have more sympathy from the people and would be able to carry out there horrible policies against the Palestinians and they would look like the good guys.

[Gold9472]

Read...

http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5763

[thumper]

Zionism:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

okay, what do you guys make of this? http://www.smiliesftw.com/x/wtf.gif

TEN QUESTIONS TO THE ZIONISTS

1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:

a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and

b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and

c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:

a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.

b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.

c) No ransom will be paid

4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

[...]http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/weissmandl.cfm

if anything, this group alleges the Zionists CAUSE the anti-semitism.

[PhilosophyGenius]

In my understanding the Zionists were homies with the British during WWII. So after the war they got hooked up with Palestinian territory. I may be off a little but it's something along those lines. During that time the jews were also conducting "terrorist attacks" against the Palestinians which had even killed some brits, that was possibly by the Zionists as well. (something along those lines)

[thumper]

hold on a sec. if the true agenda isn't really 'protecting' jews, (since they foment anti-semitism in the first place) what's the real goal?

[Gold9472]

Hold on. Who said it wasn't part of the agenda?

[thumper]

Hold on. Who said it wasn't part of the agenda?judging from their actions?

[Gold9472]

judging from their actions?

Their actions clearly show that protecting Israel (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FC31Aa01.html) was part of the agenda.

And let's not forget what the President said on 2/1/2006 (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8055)...

"Israel is a solid ally of the United States, we will rise to Israel's defense if need be."

[Gold9472]

So anyway, it was part of the agenda, but not ALL of the agenda. It also DOES NOT mean that you should hate all jews.

[thumper]

i'm differentiating between 'jews' and the state of Israel.

I'm saying they're primarily (only) interested in protecting the latter.

[Gold9472]

i'm differentiating between 'jews' and the state of Israel.

I'm saying they're primarily (only) interested in protecting the latter.

Protecting Israel was not their only goal.

1. Money
2. Power/Hegemony
3. Oil
4. The Protection Of Israel
5. The logistical placement of bases in that region for future use (Russia, China, Iran, etc...)
6. Drugs
7. The Dollar

[thumper]

Protecting Israel was not their only goal.

1. Money
2. Power/Hegemony
3. Oil
4. The Protection Of Israel
5. The logistical placement of bases in that region for future use (Russia, China, Iran, etc...)
6. Drugs
7. The Dollar

i tend to think that there is a hierarchy of power, like a pyramid. the lower levels are motivated by baser things, like money, sex, etc.

the ones at the top want rule Jerusalem, just like the Crusaders did and evey other group, believing that was the seat to rule the world.

whaddya think about that?

[Gold9472]

i tend to think that there is a hierarchy of power, like a pyramid. the lower levels are motivated by baser things, like money, sex, etc.

the ones at the top want rule Jerusalem, just like the Crusaders did and evey other group, believing that was the seat to rule the world.

whaddya think about that?

I think if that was the case, they would have taken control of Israel a long time ago.

[thumper]

I think if that was the case, they would have taken control of Israel a long time ago.yes, but isn't it the case that every 'world dictator' or 'menace' has their own idea of what 'true Israel' or 'Jerusalem' is?

like you have something called the British Israelism, where they think Edinburgh is the real Jerusalem. I'm not sure if Hitler had a similar idea, but didn't Stalin try to establish a kind of "Israel" in the Soviet Union? Hell, even the Japanese tried to establish a "jewish state" in Manchuria.

so in a sense, I think different factions have always sought to control "Israel" or "jerusalem", but they haven't always agreed on where it was, or what it should be, or they simply twisted the story to make it fit into their national myth or something like that.

[Gold9472]

No idea. What I find interesting about Israel is the "Dome Of the Rock (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1493)".

[Partridge]

Zionism in its present form undoubtedly is responsible for a certain rise in Anti-Semitism in Europe - ie, the irrational hatred of jewish people (particularly among young muslims). Norman Finkelstein has done an interetsing study (based on polls taken at the time etc) that showed that the peak of such anti-semitism occured during the brutal IDF invasion and massacre at Jenin and again when Arafat was under siege in Ramallah.

And from a recent report in Haaretz we see that: "The number of violent Anti-Semitic incidents around the world dropped by 20 percent in 2005 compared to the previous year, according to a report published Monday. The annual report, compiled by the Stephen Rot Institute for the Study of Contemporary Anti-Semitism and Racism at Tel Aviv University, said that since 2000 [Partridge: The year the Al-Aqsa Intifada began], anti-Semitic violence increased every year, and 2005 is the first year in which anti-Semitic violence dropped. [...] The report explains the drop in violence, among others, by the improvement of Israel's image around the world due to the disengagement from the Gaza Strip and the relative calm in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians."

However the place where anti-semitism is becoming a very serious problem (because many Jews live there) has little or nothing to do with Israel/Palestine. That place is the former Eastern Bloc countries - of course the xenophobia is not directed solely at Jews, but other minorities as well. And if one looks at history one can see that in periods of a dramatic drop in living standards, the rise of a new super-rich (in these countries that means the experience of 15 years of 'economic shock theraphy', ie the introduction of rapacious gangster capitalism and the privatisiation of state owned industries) etc, the tactic of the ruling class and their would-be allies on the neo-nazi far-right is 'divide and rule', blame 'The Other' for economic and social problems and promote 'national [ethnic] unity', instead of class unity which is the greatest danger to any ruling class (see Wiemar Germany, post WWI Italy, depression-era USA to a lesser extent for examples of this in action).

Do Zionists care about Jews? I think it would be accurate to say that Zionists care about Jews who care about Zionism.

Does Zionism create anti-semitism? I would have to say to a certain extent it does, that the actions of the Israeli State against Palestinians can create among some sections of the world population an anti-jewish feeling (just as WWII created anti-German and anti-Italian feelings, and US actions in Vietnam created a certain anti-americanism, not to mention US actions of the present day!!).

If you ask me, Zionism and anti-semitism could be called flipsides of the same coin - Anti-semites hate jews and 'don't want them here' - Zionism says that 'jews shouldn't be here, they should be in Israel'. And within Israel, Zionism breeds its own Jewish superiority complex (at least if Susan Nathan's books The Other Side of Israel is to be belived - Nathan is the only Jewish woman in Israel who lives in a village of Arab-Israeli citizens. She moved to Israel a committed zionist, full of the 'Leon Uris version of history', and is no a civil rights activist with Arab citizens of Israel - I highly recommend the book to anyone by the way).

What is the connection between Zionism and 9-11? That I don't know, though its aftermath has certainly been used to good effect by the Israeli state and its allies in portraying the legitimate struggle of the Palestinian masses for national liberation in the same light as 'Al-Qaeda' terrorism.

[PhilosophyGenius]

You can always count on Patridge for the in-depth analysis.:HappyWave