I Have Challenged The Owner Of 911myths.com To An Online Debate

Gold9472

Tired...
Staff member
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Hi Michael.

I've been seeing mention of your site a lot lately, and it occurred to me that maybe it would be a good idea for us to have an online debate. Just the two of us. All I ask is that it take place on my board, www.yourbbsucks.com. The topic of the debate will be, "Was 9/11 An Inside Job?"

What do you say? You will not be ridiculed or chastized. It will be an open debate between just the two of us.

Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

Jon Gold
 
Jonathan,

How would an online debate benefit anyone? It's already easy for anyone to see what I think on any particular issue: go to the site and look it up. All that would happen in a debate is I'd have to summarise things, condense arguments, and while that might appeal to some ("find out everything I believe in 500 words") I don't think it's a good idea. These are complex issues, there's no getting away from that, and to consider them properly you need all the information. Not simply a shortened debating list.

This is especially problematic in any form of controlled debate. It would be very easy for you to say, for instance, "there are too many oddities and unlikely coincidences over 9/11: what about the hijackers who are reportedly still alive, the explosions heard at the WTC, the mobile calls that couldn't possibly have been made?". Thus you've posted less than 40 words, but on the site I've got thousands of words discussing these very issues. And arguably need even more. If we followed any conventional rules about limiting size of posts then I would be permanently constrained, never able to properly answer questions you might raise. And if we didn't, if it was okay for me to post vast answers, then again, why not just go to the site and read the full text?

And then as the arguments get shortened to fit the format, so other things rise in importance to fill their place: who's the most confident, the best at summing up, has the prettiest turn of phrase, essentially superficial things that have nothing to do with whether you're right or not, and are more about presentation. Maybe I would do well at these, maybe I wouldn't, but either way, they colour the result. And to me that's a problem, because the full arguments should be all that matter. Finally, we'd come to the result. What might it be, what would we achieve? As I said, you'd inevitably be able to raise more questions than I could answer, not least because I'm far from having all the answers anyway.

Therefore anyone who requires me to answer every single question you might pose will find that I do not, and inevitably conclude that I haven't convinced them. I see no way in which such an exercise would change anyone's mind, or achieve anything of any significance at all, and for that and these other reasons I'm afraid I'll have to decline your offer.

However, let me also say this.

As I said earlier, if someone wants to find out what I think, then they can just go to the site and read about it.

If you, or anyone else wants to know what I think about an issue that maybe isn't on the site, or only briefly covered, then they can email me and ask. I reply to just about everyone (only the more abusive one-liners get binned).

If you, or anyone else, wants to contend that I'm making a misleading case somewhere, then email me and tell me why. If we can come to an agreement (which has happened before) then I'll amend the site; if I disagree but feel there's a case for showing people that side of an argument, then I'll happily link to a site that covers it.

And if you, or anyone else, wants to debate a particular point, then again, just send me an email and I'll respond. I've no problem with that, as long as you're able to stay civil. (Including lots of smears or personal attacks gets you less attention, not more).

And if you, or anyone else, wanted to reduce their debating ambitions to specific points rather than all of 9/11 in one go, email me about these, and publish the results on their site, then I'd have no objection. Although it would be polite if you told me you were going to do that first.

I'm not worried about debating people, then -- I do it all the time. However, I believe trying to condense everything into one "Inside job: yes or no?" debate is unrealistic, and will achieve nothing, and so prefer to carry on with email discussions as they arise. Hope you can accept that.

Regards,

Mike Williams
 
Michael,

I appreciate you getting back to me, but I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed. The purpose of me challenging you to a debate was not to educate myself. Lord knows I'm not the smartest person in the world, but when it comes to 9/11, I can hold my own. The purpose of me challenging you to a debate was because I often see your site referenced when people try to silence people within the 9/11 Truth Movement, and quite honestly, I wanted to take that option away from them. If you feel strongly enough about your opinion, and think you have enough facts to dispute the claims of the 911 Truth Movement, then essentially, you should welcome a debate.

My offer still stands.

Sincerely,

Jon Gold
 
Well, just pick one specific point, email it to him like he suggests, tell him you're posting the results, then post it.
 
you should have known the coward wouldnt dare debate you. his kind dont do debates.
 
somebigguy said:
Well, just pick one specific point, email it to him like he suggests, tell him you're posting the results, then post it.

You don't seem to understand... I don't want to pick him apart point by point... I want to take him out once and for all. I'm personally tired of seeing his site posted everywhere.
 
This isn't a fucking game... know what I mean? He wants to create a site that, to the newcomer, "debunks" what people in the 9/11 Truth Movement are saying, then I'm going to do everything within my power to take away any credibility he may have.
 
Jonathan,

the purpose of me challenging you to a debate was not to educate myself

I didn't think it was, for a moment. Apologies if you took it that I meant otherwise.

The purpose of me challenging you to a debate was because I often see your site referenced when people try to silence people within the 9/11 Truth Movement, and quite honestly, I wanted to take that option away from them.

Then the arguments I put forward will have to be confronted, one by one, and either accepted or overturned. Too big a job for a "show" debate, which must inevitably reduce complex arguments to brief summaries.

If you feel strongly enough about your opinion, and think you have enough facts to dispute the claims of the 911 Truth Movement, then essentially, you should welcome a debate.

Why? As I said, what I believe is out there, in the open, in full, on the site. What is to be gained by investing time and effort in producing a shorter, less complete version for you? If you and your forum members don't think anything I said has validity now, how is a debate going to convince you?

The thing is, I'm not evangelical about this, I'm just saying what I believe. I'm not out to convince people, one by one. I don't promote the site. I don't plug it on forums, I didn't add the Wikipedia references. All I've done is produce a collection of points and discoveries, everything else has been done by word of mouth. I'm not out to become some kind of conspiracy-busting Internet personality, make a "name" for myself, produce a DVD: there's too much of that exploitation already. If readers think I have a point, that's great; if they think I'm talking rubbish, well, they're entitled to their opinion. Either way, it's the contents of the site as a whole that speak for me: I don't see producing a condensed version for a hostile audience as serving any purpose at all.

Regards,

Mike Williams
 
Michael,

I am not looking for a condensed version of your information. I'm looking for an online debate. You can either accept or decline, but be forewarned, declining my invitation doesn't look good for you.

Again, my offer is still open to you.

Jon
 
I am not looking for a condensed version of your information. I'm looking for an online debate.

I see it as the same thing. The data is there, open to everyone already: if it's not condensed (ie I can just copy and paste pages from the site), then people may as well go to the site in the first place.

be forewarned, declining my invitation doesn't look good for you.

If you mean people will go around saying that I'm "running scared" or "too frightened" to debate you, then that tactic hasn't worked on me since I was about 8. What matters are the arguments, and the evidence, nothing else. Plus, please note that I've said I'm quite happy to discuss any issues you want, via email, in the same way I do for anyone else. And if you want to publish those responses, then you can. Seems quite fair to me... If you're not interested in doing that, then you're only confirming I've made the right decision.

Mike Williams
 
Michael,

I'm going to take this response as a "no". I'm sorry to hear that. Most people who have taken the time to research something have a very clear understanding as to what that information is about. In other words, they don't have the need to "copy & paste" material, but can actually have a discussion about it. A debate. I am disappointed that you have declined, but if ever you change your mind, my offer still stands.

Jon Gold
 
Well, presidential candidates can see the benefit of a public debate, but apparently this guy doesn't think its worthwhile.

Hey Jon, just challenge him fact by fact, one at a time. Play by his rules, if he chooses not to participate at that point, then you can call him on it.
 
somebigguy said:
Well, presidential candidates can see the benefit of a public debate, but apparently this guy doesn't think its worthwhile.

Hey Jon, just challenge him fact by fact, one at a time. Play by his rules, if he chooses not to participate at that point, then you can call him on it.

No. I challenged him, and he declined. To me, that speaks VOLUMES.
 
In all honesty, there is no debate. I would completely destroy him if he accepted. Here's a clue... go look on his site for everything he DOESN'T talk about, and you'll see exactly what I mean.
 
That's funny, Gold, I've held my own debating you and I've never even heard of this guy or his site.
 
jetsetlemming said:
That's funny, Gold, I've held my own debating you and I've never even heard of this guy or his site.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Did you say that out loud?
 
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