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Gold9472
08-19-2007, 07:18 PM
The debate about what really happened on Sept. 11

http://www.telegram.com/article/20070819/COLUMN21/708190521/1020

(Gold9472: As I read this, I realized that the person writing it must have spent at least SOME time looking into 9/11. I also realized that the very fact that he calls for a “full, thorough and nonpartisan investigation of the tragedy and the months preceding” shows that someone who probably thought we were nothing but “nuts”, after spending some time looking into 9/11, learned that we are NOT “nuts”, and instead are people asking legitimate questions. Something the “debunkers” would NEVER admit.)

Albert B. Southwick
Commentary

National catastrophes tend to spawn conspiracy activists. Abraham Lincoln’s assassination, a seemingly straightforward affair, was chewed over for years by conspiracy buffs who fingered various parties. One theory claimed that the Jesuits did it.

Another found Secretary of War Edwin Stanton guilty of the dastardly deed.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, produced a spate of conspiracy speculations, including the idea that President Franklin D. Roosevelt deliberately allowed it to happen in order to get the United States into the war.

The assassination of President John F. Kennedy resulted in a bumper crop of conspiracy theories, some of which are still bouncing around among the gullible.

And now we have a new wave of conspiracyitis — about Sept. 11, 2001. It recently got a boost from Rosie O’Donnell, but folks far more expert and believable than Rosie claim that the country has not been told the truth about the tragedy.

What really happened in New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001, and why? The official explanation, as stated in the 2004 commission report, is widely criticized as a pack of evasions, if not outright lies. Even its chairman and vice chairman, Gov. Thomas H. Kean and former U. S. Rep. Lee Hamilton say it is flawed and untrustworthy because some quarters of the government did not cooperate with the investigation and may actually have put up roadblocks to certain lines of inquiry.

More than 100 prominent citizens — former senators, governors, generals, colonels, intelligence specialists, pilots, engineers, law enforcement veterans — claim that there is something wrong with the official explanation of what happened on Sept. 11.

So this is different from those earlier conspiracy fantasies spun out by obsessed types impervious to facts. A glance at two Web sites, Pilots for 9 /11 Truth and Scholars for 9 /11 Truth and Justice shows a remarkable consensus that the country has been lied to, and that an independent investigation is in order.

If this were just some rabid Bush hater sounding off, it could perhaps be dismissed. But when versions of that belief are shared by former Sen. Max Cleland, Gen. Wesley Clark, Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine, Col. George Nelson, Lt. Col. Shelton Langford, former FBI Director Louis Freeh, Sen. Bob Graham, Sen. Mark Dayton, Gov. Jesse Ventura, Rep. Ron Paul, Paul Craig Roberts and 100 more other distinguished citizens with all sorts of expertise, it becomes something to be taken seriously.

So what are we to make of all this?

We all saw the planes crashing into the twin towers. We read the stories about the planes taking off from different airports and, with full loads of fuel, heading for New York and Washington.

We watched the grieving relatives on television. We have read endlessly about the plotters and al-Qaida. Are we to believe that this was all some sort of huge hoax devised by people in the Bush administration? It seems most unlikely to most. The Internet is filled with rebuttals to all the conspiracy claims.

I think it is helpful to divide the alleged conspiracy charges into their various components. Some, I believe, are more plausible than others.

1. There is no way that two airplanes could demolish two great skyscrapers in a matter of minutes. There had to be explosives installed beforehand.

Although some engineers seem to believe this, I go along with the conclusions of the National Institute of Standards and Technology that “the impact of the planes severed and damaged the support columns, dislodged fireproofing coating the steel floor trusses and widely dispersed jet fuel … ignited multi-floor fires.”

2. Experienced pilots would never have allowed two smallish-sized men armed with 1-inch box cutters to take over the cockpit.

Unlikely as it may seem, I believe that’s what happened.

3. Building 7, a nearby skyscraper not hit by any plane, collapsed several hours later in what was obviously a controlled demolition.

Building 7 was hit by a tremendous blast of heat from the burning towers that warped a huge section of its side, but it did not crumble for several hours. When it did, it collapsed vertically, much like a controlled demolition.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology made a preliminary finding that the building collapsed after “an initial local failure occurred below Floor 13 due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column . . .”

The final report has not yet been published, but it seems unlikely that any evidence for a controlled demolition will be found.

4. The damage to the Pentagon could not have been done by a large plane. There is no debris scattered around and the hole made through the wall was only about 20 feet in diameter, far too small for an airliner. The Pentagon was hit by a missile.

This version of events has been challenged by other observers, engineers and military people who were at the Pentagon on Sept. 11 and who actually felt the impact and observed the aftermath. They say there was scattered debris after the crash.

5. The 9/11 Commission Report is full of errors and omissions that show a massive cover-up. It does not even mention that Mohammed Atta, the chief conspirator, was well-known to U. S. authorities long before Sept. 11.

Although the idea of a “massive cover-up” may seem far-fetched, there are indications that somebody did not want a full disclosure of information about the planning or lack of planning before Sept. 11. Whether this was about blunders and cover-ups or something more sinister is at least open to question.

Most of the conspiracy theories on Sept. 11 are beyond belief. But I concede that we need a full, thorough and nonpartisan investigation of the tragedy and the months preceding. Otherwise, the conspiracy fantasies will go on forever. They may, anyway.

Albert B. Southwick’s column appears regularly in the Sunday Telegram.

simuvac
08-19-2007, 07:41 PM
This seems to be a common position on the Left. It basically says, "I agree with the 9/11 Commission Report, but for unspecified reasons I feel there are unanswered questions."

It's a positive for 9/11 Truth, in the sense that it acknowledges the 9/11 Commission was a fraud. But it's maybe a little too confident in the official story (I'm not 100% certain of CD, but there is a very compelling prima facie case for it. So it's difficult to declare case closed in light of so many anomalies.)

As I've said before, the only "re-opening" of 9/11 I can see happening is an investigation into some tangential element of the crime (probably something to do with money), which then leads to wider implications for the 9/11 narrative. The entire 9/11 case will never be re-opened, but some portion of it may be.

So in that sense I think this article is a good thing.

Gold9472
08-19-2007, 07:45 PM
I also realized that we will NEVER EVER NEVER agree on the "9/11 Truth Narrative" about what happened that day, but if we could get to the point where we all at least agree, and strive for a "full, thorough and nonpartisan investigation of the tragedy and the months preceding", or at the very least always support attempts to investigate "some portion" of it, then we would be better off than playing, "My theory is better than your theory."

AuGmENTor
08-19-2007, 08:02 PM
This seems to be a common position on the Left. It basically says, "I agree with the 9/11 Commission Report, but for unspecified reasons I feel there are unanswered questions."

It's a positive for 9/11 Truth, in the sense that it acknowledges the 9/11 Commission was a fraud. But it's maybe a little too confident in the official story (I'm not 100% certain of CD, but there is a very compelling prima facie case for it. So it's difficult to declare case closed in light of so many anomalies.)

As I've said before, the only "re-opening" of 9/11 I can see happening is an investigation into some tangential element of the crime (probably something to do with money), which then leads to wider implications for the 9/11 narrative. The entire 9/11 case will never be re-opened, but some portion of it may be.

So in that sense I think this article is a good thing.And SINCE the investigation is closed, there should be no reason at all NOT to release the video of the Pentagon.
In a way, I agree with you AND Jon. No, it will prolly never be reopened, but it sure as hell SHOULD be, to cast light on the truly guilty parties!

simuvac
08-19-2007, 08:44 PM
No, it will prolly never be reopened, but it sure as hell SHOULD be, to cast light on the truly guilty parties!

Yes. I wasn't even considering what should happen, just what might happen.

The list of things that should happen is a long one.

What makes me particularly perturbed is the way the establishment Left has ignored or derided 9/11 skepticism. Here is a group of people who think Bush and his people have lied about everything -- illegal wars, torture, destroying the constitution, etc. -- and yet they won't even consider the possibility that the 9/11 story isn't all what it claims to be.

There are three important events remaining for 9/11 Truth: the CIA report (don't expect anything there), the NIST WTC7 report, and the "trials" for the alleged Al Qaeda detainees.

Also, keep in mind many documents have been classified until January 2009, at which time the government will decide whether to declassify them. I would bet those documents will be classified for a very, very long time, much like the JFK files.

AuGmENTor
08-19-2007, 09:21 PM
There are three important events remaining for 9/11 Truth: the CIA report (don't expect anything there), the NIST WTC7 report, and the "trials" for the alleged Al Qaeda detainees.
Do they even ever HAVE to try them? I thought Bush had it set up so they could be detained indefinitely...

simuvac
08-19-2007, 09:51 PM
Do they even ever HAVE to try them? I thought Bush had it set up so they could be detained indefinitely...

They can, but according to recent press reports the "trials" are in the works. The plan seems pretty obvious at this point: to ensure 9/11 is once again front and center for the next presidential election, these "military tribunals" will be set up to unfold throughout the 2008 campaign. I guarantee it. Just before the vote, we'll get some bullshit announcement that the alleged detainees have been "found guilty."

End of story. No more 9/11 Truth, as far as the media and its compliant public is concerned.

And the sham of it is that the 2006 Military Commissions Act makes possible these tribunals, and it means hearsay can be admitted as evidence, and evidence derived from torture can also be admitted. It's a complete farce, but most people will read the headline and move on.

Gold9472
08-19-2007, 09:53 PM
I think the point he is trying to make is that we don't know what happened on 9/11... I told a friend in an email the other day...

We don't KNOW a damned thing. Here's what we "know." We KNOW that the Bush Administration WANTED to go to war for years with Iraq, and later Afghanistan PRIOR to 9/11. We KNOW that within hours of 9/11 happening, the Bush Administration started planning the invasions of at least Iraq. We KNOW that there were multiple warnings from different countries, and we KNOW that everything was available to this Administration to stop the attacks. We KNOW that the Bush Administration DID NOT want to investigate the 9/11 attacks. We KNOW that the 9/11 Commission was FILLED with "conflicts of interest", and the purpose of the commission was NOT to "investigate" the attacks, but to cover the asses of those sitting in Washington D.C. We KNOW that the commission was underfunded, limited in time, and turned AWAY whistleblowers. We KNOW that several people were awarded when it should have been otherwise. We KNOW that SEVERAL of the answers for the "unanswered questions" may very well lead to Government complicity, and we know at the VERY LEAST this Administration have made themselves suspect for the crimes of 9/11 because of their actions before, during, and after the 9/11 attacks. We KNOW that it is VERY difficult to plan for the invasion of Afghanistan in time for the "October snows" which requires an event like 9/11 as a pretext without either being the LUCKIEST sons of bitches alive, or having something to do with it.

AuGmENTor
08-19-2007, 10:02 PM
YEAH! What HE said!!!!

simuvac
08-19-2007, 10:28 PM
I agree 100%.

AuGmENTor
08-20-2007, 10:49 PM
I think the point he is trying to make is that we don't know what happened on 9/11... I told a friend in an email the other day...

We don't KNOW a damned thing. Here's what we "know." We KNOW that the Bush Administration WANTED to go to war for years with Iraq, and later Afghanistan PRIOR to 9/11. We KNOW that within hours of 9/11 happening, the Bush Administration started planning the invasions of at least Iraq. We KNOW that there were multiple warnings from different countries, and we KNOW that everything was available to this Administration to stop the attacks. We KNOW that the Bush Administration DID NOT want to investigate the 9/11 attacks. We KNOW that the 9/11 Commission was FILLED with "conflicts of interest", and the purpose of the commission was NOT to "investigate" the attacks, but to cover the asses of those sitting in Washington D.C. We KNOW that the commission was underfunded, limited in time, and turned AWAY whistleblowers. We KNOW that several people were awarded when it should have been otherwise. We KNOW that SEVERAL of the answers for the "unanswered questions" may very well lead to Government complicity, and we know at the VERY LEAST this Administration have made themselves suspect for the crimes of 9/11 because of their actions before, during, and after the 9/11 attacks. We KNOW that it is VERY difficult to plan for the invasion of Afghanistan in time for the "October snows" which requires an event like 9/11 as a pretext without either being the LUCKIEST sons of bitches alive, or having something to do with it.And we have known all of this for a while now, and yet people refuse to see it for what it is. I think I am going to live in the wilderness as a hermit...