Gatekeeping Against The Concrete Core

[Christophera]

Three months back I was banned at loose Change forum for using evidence and reason to support the concrete core. A moderator there, IVXX, and a few others take, without question, the description of FEMA of the core of the towers even though, with the steel core columns FEMA describes, free fall is impossible within what was seen and heard on 9-11 at the WTC. Even though no image showing the supposed steel core columns from the demolition has ever been produced from the demolition images which shows the steel core columns at some elevation, in the core area. Here is a accounting of that which I've compiled on pages I made to document what is disinformation and crippling the 9-11truth movement.

http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11_loose-change.html

I have consistently, by using demo images and logic, show that misrepresentations of construction photos or misinterpretations of demo images cannot be used to support the steel core columns. The quality questions I have asked for, the explanations of WHY the steel columns are never seen or HOW free fall is created within what was seen and heard remain completely unanswered.

We have a profound event here. Two towers, quite identical in critical ways have fallen at near free fall completely to the ground. Clearly, a primary question MUST be "what kind of structure can do this?" Then, "How?"

A major factor must be apart of the equation of the acceptable explanation. free fall must be explained within what was seen. No explanation that does not do that can be accepted. Currently the only explanation that does this is the one that use the concrete core because concrete can be fractured by a small amount of optimally placed explosive to fall instantly, steel cannot.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Anyway I've been banned again posting a thread about gatekeeping against the concrete core. I cannot even view the board.

Here is the error message I get.

This menu has been disabled

Loose Change Forum

Board Message
Sorry, an error occurred.

The error returned was:

You do not have permission to view this board

Here is the thread post I started at Loose Change theis morning prior to being banned again.

This is a whole issue on its own after 10's of thousands of posts spread over 4 years on a thread across the spectrum of 9-11 board seeking a realistic explanation for free fall.

People who say they do not believe the governments account/explanation support unquestioningly the FEMA description of the core of the towers. They do not answer logical questions that might support the steel core assertions, they have never produced an image which shows any of the supposed 47, 1300 foot tall columns at some elevation off the ground, in the core area. Ground zero images do not show steel core columns which have suffered collapse or bending, and breaking. GZ shows neatly cut columns with smooth square cut ends. Supported of the FEMA steel core have never provided and explanation for these square cut ends or the lack of bent/broken core columns. I know those columns were "interior box columns" which were a part of the exterior steel framework. I explain how they were cut within a "built to demolish" scenario which provides a realistic and feasible explanation for free fall and many other things.

Cutting charges built into the floors (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383)

The only problem many people have with the concrete core and the "built to demolish scenario" is the secrecy. How could it be built with explosives inside? How could a 1300 foot tall concrete tube be built inside and 33 years later nobody know?

Consider "Cold war Secrecy". Consider control of media and information. Consider, we do not know everything about the mind and memory, if images, film and video are removed, is all we have to document what existed.

Consider, gatekeeping against the concrete core supports and impossibility while obscuring the possible. If this is not true, then let some one post a detailed explanation for how the supposed 47 steel core columns were cut to appear as they do in GZ images and completely disappear from demo images while creating free fall. All fact which deserve explanation IF we are to relinquish the ONLY explanation for free fall which is completely comprehensive to the event.

If gatekeeping IS NOT what the deniers of concrete core are doing. Then they will post what they ARE doing here in this thread. Or explanations of how the supposed steel columns were cut or images of them in the core area at elevations from the demo images.

This thread is specifically for the deniers of the concrete core to say WHY they work so hard to dismiss all information about the concrete core or what rational purpose they expect that denial to serve.

REQUIREMENTS OF CREDIBILITY:We know there was a core, if one core didn't exist, then the other did.

For anybody posting who presents a purpose or reason for saying "no concrete", in order for them to be credible, the post must also explain HOW the supposed 47 steel core columns were cut to create near free fall which ALSO explains why they are NEVER seen in images of the demolition.

Confirm, on this site where many images of the concrete core are seen, or pieces of it at least, NO STEEL COLUMNS ARE SEEN INSIDE THE CORE AREA. There are also links to sites, quotes and reports of the WTC engineers and other engineers regarding the concrete core. The is some confusion tho because of the missing blueprints. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/blueprints.html

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

If it is asserted the steel core columns were not cut then it must be explained why they are unseen in demolition images.

Below is the site which explains free fall realistically.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

The built to demolish scenario is the only possible way to get enough explosives placed optimally and distributed well enough to create this. Look at all the concrete in that explosive debris wave!

[image]http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexplodinglines.jpg[/img]

At the bottom of this page,

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11corexplosions.html

you will find an explanation for the red and yellow lines in the above image which are logical and totally accommodate free fall and total pulverization.

Is it logical to take without question the word of FEMA which disallows a feasible explanation for free fall? Is it logical to refuse to let people use evidence and reason to support a structure that IS SEEN (steel core columns are not) in the quest for truth?

If it is, it means that the truth is a social matter of opinion and has nothing to do with the facts.

[Gold9472]

Christopher, can I ask you a question without it turning into an argument? You've been at this for quite a long time. From what I can see, you spend the majority of your time "debating" what happened. What kind of activism do you do or have done?

[Eckolaker]

I tend to have to agree with Jon here. We could debate back and forth which is the correct design for the WTC, but in the end, its activism that is going to get our message across. CD and the concrete core or lack there of within the WTC has little to do with being active.

As many will tell you, 9/11 truth will come out. Whether or not "they" want it to. After all is said and done and those truly responsible have been convicted in a court of law, the state of the concrete core prior to 9/11 will be of minor value.

Think Global, act local.

[Christophera]

Christopher, can I ask you a question without it turning into an argument? You've been at this for quite a long time. From what I can see, you spend the majority of your time "debating" what happened. What kind of activism do you do or have done?

I'm ready to do any kind available and have done all kinds available. I'd love to find somebody who has high quality video clip to collaborate with and make an alternative video to the ones available. I've asked Eric Hufschmid who I know, he lives near by, but he won't do it. There is very little 9-11 activism to take part in except message boards as far as I can tell. It's weird.

I take my 400 watt PA into the park and talk about "built to demolish towers". Some passer bys love it, others are appalled. We had a 9-11 town hall type thing in 2004 here in Santa Barbara and I went to that and spoke to the panel, Cynthia Mckinney was among them. She is right on and knows that everything is just screwed since the 2000 election. She knows it was a demo. There are good politicians that want to do something but the conspiracy stuff is just too sketchy and hairy for their carreers. I wish to give them a nice, politaically safe MIHOP with the FEMA core lie to work with, but the truth movement has been infiltrated heavily, successfully and attitude controls it so the needed assistence ain't there to get this done. The perps are successful with the DARPA financed web and carefully designed psyops.

I don't debate what happened, others do. I saw the 1990 documentary, I know what the core was. I understood every word of that 2 hour show (except for the 20 minutes I missed). I have experience with high explosives, I know a high speed series of detonations when I see them. I know they are "well contained" when I see them and I hear the recordings. I know the implications of these things. I been a welder for 35 years and know the difference between tempered steel and mild steel and what it looks like under varying conditions of failure.

People pretend to debate with me, most of them. Occasionally a few knowledgeable people post and ask good questions or make good critical observations based on the limited information they have of what I share. I answer their questions specifically and IF they have integrity they quietly go away OR they post a big compliment and quietly go away knowing that I've just about nailed the event down. I wish they would stay and build upon the agreement we have, but they are afraid to.

This is not arrogance I speak from, not like I feel I "know it all" or anything. I simply know what I know and it IS ENOUGH to be certain of what I say. Sure there are experts in these fields that know much more than I do and they are afraid to speak out. I understand that. So I speak out and demand to be reasoned with in order for challengers to qualify under criteria of logic.

If in asking others who are trying to debate, who do not know, to explain critical issues I have with their assertions or beliefs is debating, then I don't know what debating is. Why should I compromise what I know? How will that serve us? The perps have designed the entire opposition to 9-11 truth years before 9-11. The expect people to make compromise or support compromise, and I know that. From my perspective there was one event, and only one event. I know what happened and I try to reason with others to get them to logically see the errors of their misconceptions. Most often they do not reason.

They use the "opinions" of others and make judgments based on that, end of story, I'm banned over and over. Compromise is no better.

If others do not reason, this makes them "unreal", "phoney" "pretend", IF they believe what they are doing is reasonable. From my position, one actually has to "reason" to be "reasonable". If one does not know enough, does not have enough experience, they cannot reason and they logically should not even try. A large portion of those in the 9-11 movement on the web seem to be that way. Logically, until they show me otherwise, I must view them as "unreal." This medium lacks everything necessary to evaluate the sincerity of those one interacts with except the aspects I've mentioned here.

Or, we could all be fakes, and none of us would know it. It is only by what we actually do that we have any real clue. See my web site. I actually built it myself from images I found or that were provided to me on the web.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

I know I've created the only web site in existence that actually provides a feasible and realistic explanation for what happened to the towers. When I see another site that does something simsialr, I will know it. I will examine it very carefully. If it appears more deeply based in reason and the reality of materials and design involved, I will adjust my position accordingly. So far I've seen no such site. I've seen a great deal of speculation and most of it properly presents itself as that. The authors know they are not explaining what happened.

Well, ............ I know I am explaining what happened not debating "what happened". If people cannot believe that I can do that, then reason with me and logically show me that I cannot do such. Because of scraps of data from that 1990 documentary, I know 'I've got it right.
As time passes and those folks on the web, the "debaters" come by and try to debate with me, presenting or "misrepresenting" their "evidence". I find they are actually bringing me information I can use. I actually understand the images they "misrepresent." I know what I'm looking at, they don't.

Just like the onlooking viewer is appalled that such conflict exists in the truth movement, unaware that there is a very good chance that half of it is fake. Because they do not have the experience and knowledge, they don't know which half. Of course they will most often go along with the tendency which is to use "opinion" to determine what the truth is. A few I'm sure go out and tactfully check on my assertions by consulting with experts without letting on they are trying to determine if I know what I'm talking about. They have returned to solemnly say that my assertions are for the most part accurate, then they go away having contributed all they have the courage to. God bless them.

[Christophera]

I tend to have to agree with Jon here. We could debate back and forth which is the correct design for the WTC, but in the end, its activism that is going to get our message across. CD and the concrete core or lack there of within the WTC has little to do with being active.

If we participate in activism promoting an impossibility we will not succeed. The perps know this and count on it.


As many will tell you, 9/11 truth will come out. Whether or not "they" want it to. After all is said and done and those truly responsible have been convicted in a court of law, the state of the concrete core prior to 9/11 will be of minor value.

Think Global, act local.

The perps have though about this very, very carefully, they are not dummies, and by the time the truth is ready to come out. You and I are going to too busy trying to survive to bother with it. Everybody else too. We got one chance, this is it.

My thoughts are so global that most have to study just to follow them effectively. Not speaking from arrogance there, just an inability to stimulate needed and desired function from knowledge based in; history, science, astronomy and psychology that is totally cognizant of the removal of information from our western society. Not cogizant of all that was removed, but knowing that it was removed and knowing much of what WAS removed which is creitical to knowing what is happening now and how limited our options really are.

http://www.realityzone.com/hiddenagenda2.html

It is real. Global history was re written. Knowledge removed, wholesale.

Regarding local. Santa Barbara is the spiritual center of secret societies in America and therefore NOTHING happens here, no matter how hard I work to "act locally." Still I'm always putting efforts into it.

Nonetheless, nice little saying.

[AuGmENTor]

She is right on and knows that everything is just screwed since the 2000 election.

My humble opinion is it's been screwed up ALOT longer than that. Are you of the mind that this problem can be solved by voting for anyone at all on the ballots? You see, it seems to me taht even if you DID get someone in office who wasn't hopelessly corrupt, they would be suicided/ killed as soon as they started to make any sort of a positive change. I was in that mess of shit. It doesn't matter if those columns were made of fluffenutter, they came down. Doesn't change that the crime scene was excavated before a proper investigation could be conducted. If you do this to fill time that you feel you NEED to spend on the movement, hey great. I'm a bit more simple than all of the things discussed in here. Alot of it goes over my head, and I'm not ashamed to say that. But I DO get what alot of people miss: This did not happen on 911. It happened in the decades PRIOR to 911. Where is the outrage over Pearl Harbor, which is now practically ADMITTED to being a conspiracy? Or the JFK assassination, which has ALOT of credible evidence pointing to it being one also? Last time I checked, there was no statute of limitations on murder. We have been conditioned to accept these things. Gradually, over time. Sad to say, there is not a person alive you will elect into office that will change this ONE BIT. This monster that has taken control of ALL of our lives has to be completely destroyed, and a smaller, tamer, populace controlled monster put in it's place. Take that as you will.

[royster]

"Hope Ranch" is in Santa Barbera; I worked there a while. I was unaware of the secret societies, but then again; they're secret. At any rate, many of us are working frantically on the metaphysical aspect you are trying to indicate. I understand your urgency. Breathe, Critter.

[Christophera]

My humble opinion is it's been screwed up ALOT longer than that.

Good call, I say badly screwed up since 1950.


Are you of the mind that this problem can be solved by voting for anyone at all on the ballots? You see, it seems to me that even if you DID get someone in office who wasn't hopelessly corrupt, they would be suicided/ killed as soon as they started to make any sort of a positive change.

Within the current world view held by most people, yes. That view is based on what they know and this,

http://www.realityzone.com/hiddenagenda2.html

means that there is knowledge they don't have, but could have, that alters that world view in ways they won't believe until it happens.


I was in that mess of shit. It doesn't matter if those columns were made of fluffenutter, they came down. Doesn't change that the crime scene was excavated before a proper investigation could be conducted. If you do this to fill time that you feel you NEED to spend on the movement, hey great.

It is true that the violation of due process should be enough for most people, but people have become acustomed to accepting lawlessness from government in a bigger way since iran/contra. Meaning that they don't respond to the due process violation properly. If there is a movement, it will because it works with actual information rather than fluffenutter.

If you attempt to influence people with fluffenutter, they will ignore you. FEMA said there were steel core columns (fluffenutter), there were not, there was a concrete core. Columns existed but not in the core. If FEMA deceived the county about the structure, THAT is something the people will take notice of and, it is safe for politicians to push, almost nothing else about 9-11 is. Why do you think the gatekeeping is so persistent on the concrete core?

90 percent of what 9-11 buzz is about requires a lawful government to do anything about, including due process violations. Well, ...... that is one thing we do not have. If the movement takes it upon itself to use reason to decide what is important to talk about rather than opinion and the concrete core becomes and issue, we will find a copy of that 1990 documentary called "The Construction of the Twin Towers" and the lie is OVER. Any American worth a vote will take notice and object to that lie because all of the real ones are weirded out about the free fall issue and the lie is too closely related to ignore.



I'm a bit more simple than all of the things discussed in here. Alot of it goes over my head, and I'm not ashamed to say that. But I DO get what alot of people miss: This did not happen on 911. It happened in the decades PRIOR to 911. Where is the outrage over Pearl Harbor, which is now practically ADMITTED to being a conspiracy? Or the JFK assassination, which has ALOT of credible evidence pointing to it being one also? Last time I checked, there was no statute of limitations on murder. We have been conditioned to accept these things. Gradually, over time. Sad to say, there is not a person alive you will elect into office that will change this ONE BIT. This monster that has taken control of ALL of our lives has to be completely destroyed, and a smaller, tamer, populace controlled monster put in it's place. Take that as you will.

You are right with that. It goes way back. But in 1950 or thereabout it really got ugly. But the history is subtle.

It is seen with the advances that made the world look at America after the reformation era civil rights acts with awe and wonder or pride in humanity. Then it started getting messed after that where corporations were given the right to free speech, something never intended. Actually something disallowed.

Then again, and I repeat, no need to dispair or give up.

Within the current world view held by most people, yes. That view is based on what they know and this,

http://www.realityzone.com/hiddenagenda2.html

means that there is knowledge they don't have, but could have, that alters that world view in ways they won't believe until it happens.

Good stuff, you got a clue.

[AuGmENTor]

If you attempt to influence people with fluffenutter, they will ignore you.

Heh, they seem to be ignoring us anyway.


Then again, and I repeat, no need to dispair or give up.
Never.

Let me ask you another question: From the first person who questioned the official story, until the second you read these words, where have we gotten? What would an overall progress indicator show to represent what has happened since day 1 of this movement?
(OK 2 questions) Next: What is the ultimate goal/ ideal solution? Do we just push till Bush and Co. swing? And then all goes back to normal? I don't ask this because I'm afraid I will have nothing to do if the movement ended. Indeed, I would prefer none of this existed. But it does, and like the other conspiracies I mentioned in my earlier post, I think that once THAT is proven, we just shift gears until ALL of this shit is fixed. But I kinda want to hear what someone elses thought is on this. I have asked this question dozens of times on this board, and you wouldn't believe how often it is just ignored. In fact, I dont think I have had it answered yet. (Gold kinda did, but he doesnt count {hehe, Jon})

[MrDark71]

I think we've gotten to the point that there are so many people intrigued by this that it is slowly proliferating itself, albeit negatively at this point, into the media. It's only a matter of time until more and more people with a clue start to question what they have been told. I doubt we'll ever get people to embrace any theory wholeheartedly....but all we really need to do is raise the question...people can think for themselves...and will.

[Christophera]

If you attempt to influence people with fluffenutter, they will ignore you.


Heh, they seem to be ignoring us anyway.

That is the reaction to conspiracy theories. Outright lies that are intrinsic to credible explanations of events are regarded diferently. Prove one, and you have peoples attentions. So far none deeply intrinsic to mihop have been shown.



Let me ask you another question: From the first person who questioned the official story, until the second you read these words, where have we gotten?

We have gotten deeper and deeper in to our collective reptilian pit of fear and the inherent dysfunction of it that the perps depend on.

[QUOTE=AuGmENTor]What would an overall progress indicator show to represent what has happened since day 1 of this movement?

Conscious culture, .............. that understands itself and its purpose of cooperation based in understanding, sharing the truth with a lack of fear, honoring the purpose of truth.



(OK 2 questions) Next: What is the ultimate goal/ ideal solution? Do we just push till Bush and Co. swing? And then all goes back to normal? I don't ask this because I'm afraid I will have nothing to do if the movement ended. Indeed, I would prefer none of this existed. But it does, and like the other conspiracies I mentioned in my earlier post, I think that once THAT is proven, we just shift gears until ALL of this shit is fixed. But I kinda want to hear what someone elses thought is on this. I have asked this question dozens of times on this board, and you wouldn't believe how often it is just ignored. In fact, I dont think I have had it answered yet. (Gold kinda did, but he doesnt count {hehe, Jon})

The goal has nothing to do with bushco. The course of events will simply replace the entire gaggle. Their corruption is miniscule compared to our ignorance, that is how they were allowed to become so corrupt and still hold power. This has been true for a long time, but we were forced into it, generation after generation. There is good reason we are the way we are.

It has to do with us, the people (not that elite group who first coined the term)

We think we know what normal is. We don't. We have never been normal. We are terrified of normal, ....... so, ..........first thing to do is get over that. To do that we must get past the fearful ignorance.

Recall.

Within the current world view held by most people, yes. That view is based on what they know and this,

http://www.realityzone.com/hiddenagenda2.html

means that there is knowledge they don't have, but could have, that alters that world view in ways they won't believe until it happens.

Recovering enough of that knowledge to have respect for what was lost, it's value and what is irretrievable, then working to recreate it anew.

Remember John Fowles, or perhaps he quoted another.

Man shall never cease from exploration. And the end of all of his exploring shall be to arrive at the place where he began to know the place for the first time.

[Christophera]

In "Post Traumatic Readiness", I point out the need for a "gear shift". In other posts, I state that this is the PERFECT oppertunity to redefine EVERYTHING. That includes how we attend to our convicted criminals.
MY goal in the 9/11 Movement is along AuGmENTor's lines; this pushes the dominoes back all the way to the turn of the century. And I'm sure, Chris, that you've heard that America was planned as the new Freemason capitol of the world. Take it or leave it, it's just an indicator that 1950 was no specific starting point. You may want to check down in the paranormal basement about the "S.S."Titanic" anomalies and read Aceace's post.
It is my belief, that since (duh!) the 9/11 Truth Movement will break this thing wide open, senior members would be looked upon to conduct hearings, etc.....this opens a whole NEW can o'worms. I tend to heed the "elder's" advice; keep it simple, keep it reasonable, and make it so it's not frightening to the sheeple.
Bless you on your work.

Great stuff Royster,

Aceace
The Titanic piece was info I've been waiting to add to my page on the ship, here.

http://truthasaur.com/secret_history/titanic_jp_Morgan.html

I always knew there was more than I had found.

Check this one as well. A new image of the nail in the floor of Chartres.

http://truthasaur.com/secret_history/templars_chartres.html

Got to do some work now, but I'll return to comment further on your post later.

[Christophera]

I tend to heed the "elder's" advice; keep it simple, keep it reasonable, and make it so it's not frightening to the sheeple.
Bless you on your work.

What you are describing IS THE CONCRETE CORE ISSUE.

It is reasonable to relate analysis of free fall to strcutural design.

Concrete can be fractured to instantly fall, steel cannot. This is simple.

FEMA lies about the design/construction of the towers. This is not frightening.


Why they lied might be frigntening, but that comes later.

[Christophera]

And I'm sure, Chris, that you've heard that America was planned as the new Freemason capitol of the world. Take it or leave it, it's just an indicator that 1950 was no specific starting point.

There was something that happened in around 1950. Operation paperclip. That I believe was the beginning of the infiltration that lead to the cold war and many other things. If we knew enough about Russia, it would be logical we would find a similar immigration/infiltration. From the associated "mind control" of that infiltration we would see HOW the "mutually assured destruction" policy was justified. From that secrecy came the secrecy that concealed the "built to demolish" aspects of the towers, as well as many other things that lead to the decline of lawful, Consitutional government.

Then, 100 years earlier in 1850, there was another event which perhaps enabled that to a degree. The sons of Freemasons began NOT joining their fathers lodges. Since then the membership has been declining. However, the unconscious connections between the lodge and the descendant remained. Still affiliated and compliant but not restrained by the "Code of Masonic Conduct". This I've learned was by sabotage of their unconsciously carried oral histories which had been earlier altered towards more secrecy by the infiltration of the Templars. That mapping became the basis for the "Mission chains."

Following the 1305 ban by Phillip the Fair, King of France, the Templars mapped the worlds coastlines and returned to Scotland, "Latin term" for "Alba".

http://truthasaur.com/secret_history/scotland_falconry.html

Secrecy complaint with romes mandates began the alteration of the Freemason society into what colonized this continent. Unconscious is better that secret.

[MrDark71]

I'm no mason...but I have made concrete. How (without a substructure i.e steel) do you pour 1000 vertical feet of concrete maintaining consistant stability and composition? ...or if it was done in pieces how were they adhered?....duct tape?

Please someone fill me in here because that seems a touch architecturally unsound for a skyscraper.

[Christophera]

I'm no mason...but I have made concrete. How (without a substructure i.e steel) do you pour 1000 vertical feet of concrete maintaining consistent stability and composition? ...or if it was done in pieces how were they adhered?....duct tape?

Please someone fill me in here because that seems a touch architecturally unsound for a skyscraper.

The concrete was poured in 40 lifts. That is basically the limit for concrete as the hydrostatic pressures become too great for wooden forms. The interior forms were steel, breakdown forms.

The steel exterior framework was only allowed to extend. normally, 80 feet over the top of the last concrete pour of the core. This was because the steel frameworks was laterally quite flimsy. The steel was designed to take weight and the concrete to absorb the lateral loads that the steel could not resist in the tall skinny proportions of the towers.

The inside face of the interior box columns, the inner wall of the outer tube of the "tube in a tube" construction, was used to support the outer wooden forms.

During construction the cranes could apply such large lateral loads that the framework could flex and fail so the concrete had to be within 80 feet of the top floor for the cranes to work at capacity. WTC 2 had a slightly differently designed core (shear wall cells) which allowed parts of it to be built ahead of the total which enabled the steel to go higher without a completed core.

The below image shows what can only be rebar. It is huge rebar. Custom ordered high tensile steel, 3 inches in diameter on 4 foot centers. We view the wall lines of it diagonally which probably makes the resolution of the rebar more possible at the distance.
Notice the slope of the top of the bar. The engineers required that the concrete be poured on a slope. The dryer mixed heavy aggregate concrete was mounded inside the concrete forms up towards a corner. Opposite corners were high points making a saw toothed joint between pours which minimized the adhesion problem and increased the resistance to torsion which was the major problem encountered with wind.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/spire_dust-3.jpg

[Christophera]

Hmmmmm, my post is being truncated.

I have to post again to finish,


The small size of the above vertical elements is shown by the size of the interior box column in the image below. The below image was taken a second before the above. The rebar is in concrete shear walls (se bottom image) behind the framed walls formed by the interior box columns, outside the core area, which the spire is at a corner.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/media/56016/site1074.jpg

In the 1990 documentary I viewed called "The Construction of the Twin Towers" which was 2 hours in length, the first 20-30 minutes was about the design process.
Leslie Robertson had conceived of the towers but did not have the skill to adequately certify the towers safety. Minoru Yamasaki had the task of taking Robertsons initial steel core design and testing it. He found that calculations showed the tower was suceptable to defoemations that exceeded design limits and could cause failures. He built a scale model and the wind tunnel revealed that at 75MPH the tower showed signs of deformations that, if increased, would cause failures. This is the point where he moved to consider the concrete core.

One design that was submitted but abandoned was the post stressed concrete core which the BBC still presents as the core. We all know the elevators were inside the core and that core is solid.

the BBC core (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1540000/images/_1540044_world_trade_structure300.gif)


The concrete core was tubular shear wall construction. (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG)

The below image shows the relationship between the concrete shear wall and the interior box columns at about 500 feet elevation. This is basically the same

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif

The steel column is on the right flexing while the segment of concrete shear wall is on the left holding it up.

[royster]

It is interesting the the blue-prints for the WTC Towers are "missing".

[AuGmENTor]

That's bullshit. They should absolutely be available from somewhere, even if it were the origional designers. Some asian dood, no?

[royster]

Correct, and he died from cancer some years ago. He also realized that the galvanic corrosion theory was truth. Consider Thomas Andrews, as his Titanic was sinking.

[Christophera]

That's bullshit. They should absolutely be available from somewhere, even if it were the original designers. Some asian dood, no?

Ya, that is BS.

Here is what happened to the cities WTC documents.

http://www.nyclu.org/g_archive020602.html

It is a fact that FEMA didn't ever see the plans.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/blueprints.html

I have a copy of the 1964 preliminary plans (20 sheets) which were used by Minoru Yamasaki to evaluate the loads on the tower. The existing floor plans are based on those plans. There is nothing on the core.

Robertson knew better than to try and design a steel core that he couldn't complete the engineering calc.s' on.

Here are scans of the 1964 preliminaries, same as what I have, I actually have a few more sheets tho.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/masterplan/index.html

So far the only thing I've found them useful for is to show that the towers faces were aligned to cardinal directions. Believe it or not; topozone, FEMA, mapquest, all have the north arrow rotated about 25 degree CCW in the online images.

I see it as an attempt to compromise peoples eforts to commincate about images of the towers and the WTC. There are about 4 posters over at democraticunderground that can't understand that the architects site plan showing the towers aligned in cardinal directions is the final call. They insisted on using the FEMA image or topozone.

[AuGmENTor]

LITERALLY sleeping together, while carrying out New World Order instructions.
Again; IT'S MY Scrabble word: you may challenge me.
However, I stepped on Chris' transmit....forgive me.I haven't finished my crow from last time. No thanx...

[Christophera]

Not to get tabloid, but there is some validity to the North tower getting hit first, the flight #s etc.. Those freemasons just LOVE their numberology.

Yes. And Muslims love to intervene in that. My site puts together the only realistic explanation for the "Wrong Tower Fell First" issue that I've seen yet.

"towers fell in the wrong order" (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1207667)

It's based on the assumption that Atta was flying flight 11 and that he willfully disobeyed orders, the plan, just to whack the north tower on the north side.

All of these ancient spiritual factions regard the north as "Where the magic of life comes from." So Atta did a double whammy with the first strike that actually did the real America, a big favor. With his act the entire event was made nonsensical with regard to the official collapse story to the most "sherlockian" minds.

The plan would have been that flight 11 was to hit the west side of WTC 2 at the approximate elevation 175 hit and that 175 was supposed to hit WTC 1 on the south side. My link above explains more.


Did you know that Ray Kroc, Walt Disney and Herbert Hoover were...well, your worst nightmare.

That, ............. explains a lot.

[AuGmENTor]

for the "Wrong Tower Fell First" issue that I've seen yet. What's interesting to me is that people with some intelligence are not questioning that two buildings got hit in two totally different places, by planes travelling at different speeds, with different angles of impact. From THAT, both towers just happened to fall in exactly the same way. This doesn't strike these people as abnormal at all? Blech

[royster]

However, I don't believe anyone was at the controls of the vehicles that struck the WTC Towers. Thus, Atta was the dupe that several threads...including 7/7, indicate. This is a deliberate "blur" area, and it is best navigated by recalling the facts...including when the actual planes were decomisioned; some of them in 2005.

[royster]

This is a matter of FAA public record. #s available, records exist. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.

[royster]

Aug, the planes hit at a minimum of 300 mph. Fuel doesn't just stop and go down to the lobby to buy a coke.

[royster]

Regardless of the core issue...all due respects, Chris...the fact that the steel structure should have been a popsicle stick in the video, yet it fell in the same free fall, clearly indicates controlled demolition of cutting the steel skeleton. Regardless of dust poofs, however the physics arrived, it was premeditated murder, and perhaps this is the frusteration you generate from all the web sites you try to post at, and I, too would like to see what you are actively doing for the 9/11 Truth Movement.

[royster]

However, I don't believe anyone was at the controls of the vehicles that struck the WTC Towers. Thus, Atta was the dupe that several threads...including 7/7, indicate. This is a deliberate "blur" area, and it is best navigated by recalling the facts...including when the actual planes were decomisioned; some of them in 2005.http://www.infowars.net/articles/july2006/060706Registrations.html

[royster]

why didn't that register? http://www.infowars.net/articles/july2006/060706Registrations.html

[Gold9472]

I took out the Loose Change portion of the title in this thread. I shouldn't have allowed this thread to begin with because it's divisive. Sorry Christopher, but I don't don't believe in enabling the infighting of this movement.

[Gold9472]

4. There is to be NO posting of articles that say any particular 9/11 site or 9/11 researcher is "Disinformation", or a "Gatekeeper". If you have doubts about a certain organization, or a certain researcher, then don't follow them, period.

From the "Rule Book".

[Gold9472]

I haven't even read through this thread... but I saw the title, and got mad. It had nothing to do with anyone in particular. I'm just tired of the fighting, and the title of this thread was taking a shot at individuals I consider friends.

[Gold9472]

This forum isn't about that bs.

[AuGmENTor]

You make a solid point Jon, that I of course, completely missed. I am interested in the info contained in this thread, but didn't realize myself that the title was inflamatory. Stick to what you KNOW is my motto.

[Christophera]

Regardless of the core issue...all due respects, Chris...the fact that the steel structure should have been a popsicle stick in the video, yet it fell in the same free fall, clearly indicates controlled demolition of cutting the steel skeleton. Regardless of dust poofs,

The interior box columns had to have been cut with high explosives. However doing so with uncontained explosives is strictly obvious. It didn't happen, even the Finnish officer who speculated nukes knows that. He's right about the lack of cutting charges cutting steel columns, he knows explosives. He's wrong in thinking there were steel columns to cut. He's really out of it for even considering the nuke. Look where things go when people don't know about the concrete core!

If he knew there was a concrete core, and that somebody was convinced that C4 was encapsulated in it, it is my bet that he would agree. I show exactly how the columns that did exist were cut, here.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383

In a way totally consistent with what was seen and heard.


however the physics arrived, it was premeditated murder, and perhaps this is the frusteration you generate from all the web sites you try to post at, and I, too would like to see what you are actively doing for the 9/11 Truth Movement.

What I am doing for the 9-11 truth movement is showing them with images what the core of the tower was made of. It is likly that most of the movement are not in construction, so they cannot use my information.

Also, on the web, not many folks are willing to use reason in meaningful ways. I've made this obivious, but even that doesn't seem to matter. It appears as though 25 years of media control has turned many people into sensation seekers whereupon substance is abandoned in favor of popular opinion, trend and favoritism.

The actualization of this can easily be contributed to infiltration of the subcultures that comprise the 9-11 truth movement, and if folks will not use evidence and reason, the infiltrations will prevail. They appear to be doing just that. In the prevalence of the sabotage of the 9-11 truth movement, it has lost relevance.

What should I be doing for the truth movement? Should I be doing what the infiltrators suggest? Not.

Auggie gets relevant here in a way I recognize. Fundamental logic, he rightfully bemoans the lack of it.


What's interesting to me is that people with some intelligence are not questioning that two buildings got hit in two totally different places, by planes travelling at different speeds, with different angles of impact. From THAT, both towers just happened to fall in exactly the same way. This doesn't strike these people as abnormal at all? Blech

The movement is being mislead, and I am providing a fixed point that it can refer to. I know how the towers were built and I cannot be swayed. If we are going to get the truth, I contend it is just a matter of time until this becomes clear.

What is curious is that almost no truth seeker has argued that my site,

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Does not provide a realistic and feasible explanation for free fall. That site literally is the only site that explains just about everything about the WTC in a way which is consistent with the event seen and heard.

It is almost like people subconsciously know it is true, that the buildings were built to demolish, and they cannot, for any reason bring themselves to deal with that.

Sometime I think it is not 9-11 that has us so twisted up, its the fact that they towers were built to do that under our noses while we worried about the cold war and strove for comfort and security. All the while loosing our ability to share our purposes as media distorted the very purpose of life; it is the fact that we are totally without means to deal with the infiltration that built the towers; that is what stops people from unifying and using information reasonably.

It's like;

Mommy and daddy killed brother and sister after telling us that the TV would tell us what life was about then telling us independantly that the other was lying and stealing.

[royster]

Chris; I hear you. In fact, it's almost like listening to a recording of myself. In my earliest research, it was stated that in order to calm the business owners in the Lower Manhatten district, that the Towers were indeed pre-disposed for controlled demolition. I am fairly certain I read this at serendipity.li.
It's not that I doubt you; I don't. (My 1st brother was an architect and worked with highrise in L.A.-different subject, interesting stuff.)
And I clearly hear...and stand with you...on social statement.

I, for one, have allowed myself to get too lofty...and possessive...in the 9/11 Truth movement. I did not want to be forgotton, because all these computer wiz people blow right past me. What I am constantly reminded of is; it is important to show the facts. My "status" in doing so will only diminish this, but I admit that I sought status. The 9/11 Truth Movement isn't about what thesis gives the technical wherewithall; it needs to be a simple child, pointing innocently and saying; "The emporer has no clothes." You and I are anything BUT simple. Still; I ask of you to bring forward other aspects. Obsession on one particular...especially at this point in the game...isn't working. Please be patient, and KNOW you will be vindicated.
Also, in an early response to you; breathe, Critter! Lighten up occassionally. I believe it is Chana's avatar that shows the "happy face" beating its head aginst the wall. We hear you. We know you have validity. We are all in this together.

[Christophera]

You make a solid point Jon, that I of course, completely missed. I am interested in the info contained in this thread, but didn't realize myself that the title was inflammatory. Stick to what you KNOW is my motto.

Membership Dues for Eternity; truth, honesty and focus and sticking to what I know are my motto.


The 9/11 Truth Movement isn't about what thesis gives the technical wherewithall; it needs to be a simple child, pointing innocently and saying; "The emperor has no clothes."

Allow a combination of analogies, please. The 9-11 truth quest is like the emperor, but only to those that have eyes. Otherwise it would be an elephant with 3 blind men describing what they perceived. To the listener it fully appears that the blind men are hallucinating and that clearly the situation is one where a ruler is parading around obviously naked. But I haven't said those listening have vision.


I, for one, have allowed myself to get too lofty...and possessive...in the 9/11 Truth movement. I did not want to be forgotten, because all these computer wiz people blow right past me. What I am constantly reminded of is; it is important to show the facts. My "status" in doing so will only diminish this, but I admit that I sought status.

What has status to me is function. I read an article the other day where Kyle Hence called the office of Dennis Kucinich and asked about 9-11. He was told that 9-11 was history, over. End of story.
My own perceptions of the movement is that it is in dire trouble. And yes, Jon is right (he didn't say this but it doesn't need spoken to see his motive.) about what he terms "infighting", and he reacts nearly correctly to it in that the "infighting" has damaged the movement.

However, it is not just the infighting that has damaged it. Any time there are infiltration's and those with fidelity discover them, there is bound to be "infighting". Logically, if the infiltrators are to be purged so the collective effort can properly proceed, the "infighting" must be VERY carefully analyzed and converted to a "filtration" of the "infiltrators" by the collective effort.

As nasty as it appears, that is the reality.


You and I are anything BUT simple. Still; I ask of you to bring forward other aspects. Obsession on one particular...especially at this point in the game...isn't working. Please be patient, and KNOW you will be vindicated.

How is the collective going to be able to focus on "filtration" by analysis if there is no clear indicator of the problem? What exactly shall they analyze? What is not working is "infighting". Analysis works BUT NOBODY IS DOING IT!

Seriously, ......... nobody ever examines what I'm doing or how miserably my opposition fails in making its point. Nobody evaluates the meaning of that to the quest for truth. They just ban me and try to work up an opinion that my unwillingness to go along with what is accepted in higher places is derogatory in some way to the movement.

Consider the meaning of what I've just said.


Also, in an early response to you; breathe, Critter! Lighten up occasionally. I believe it is Chana's avatar that shows the "happy face" beating its head against the wall. We hear you. We know you have validity. We are all in this together.

I've provided an example above of what is happening in the movement. My validity is really not an issue for me. The validity of my evidence is. The validity of circumstance (emperors appearance) is an issue, (the missing plans, the destroyed evidence, due process violated).

Logically, if the emperor has no cloths then my evidence must be carefully and logically examined by the movement or the movement is not being logical (blind men examining an elephant all providing wrong descriptions). If that is the case we could justifiably say that the movement is controlled by infiltrators or the programs they have instituted.

[royster]

Gee...would you like to be part of my legal team?
Okay Chris; I recieve your point, and I ask; where do we go with this, now? What I know about communicating is that one must get it down to the 8-second attention span. That's a tough call. It's one I've been trying to perfect for years. And you have my sympathy in regards to keeping anyone's focus beyond that 8 seconds. (The "Simpsons" does a wonderful illustration of the "8 second attention span".)
What were we talking about?

[Christophera]

Gee...would you like to be part of my legal team?
Okay Chris; I recieve your point, and I ask; where do we go with this, now?

Where I've been going with it is to find people that will use reason in analysis of the massive argument I've put forth on the web supporting the concrete core.

At this point if you google "concrete core" "WTC", you either find my web pages or my arguments on forums.

It used to be, about 2-3 years ago that you found universities, architectural site and engineering sites talking about the concrete core of the twin towers. However, they have been disapearing fast. Here is an example.

http://www.unc.edu/courses/2001fall/plan/006e/001/engineering/index.html

I had been using that link as text only and not a page call in .html from my first concrete core page, http://concretecore.741.com. The universalseed.org said they wouldn't list the page because there were so many popups. So I made another page on the same server where my demo page was. Without thinking about it, to make the page easier to use, I turned the text into a page call. Soon thereafter I get this message,

ERROR 404

The URL you requested was not found on this server.

The university web master was able to follow the page call back to my page then removed the file from their server. When it was text the viewer had to copy and paste. So I screwed up by trying to; 1. Conform to universalseed.orgs objection to popups. 2. By making the link active.

universalseed.org still will not list my concrete core page. The demo page is listed under "Academic Papers and Analyses". I had to link my concrete core page from the demo page which is something I did not want to do from the beginning.

http://www.universalseed.org/main.asp?CategoryID=6

I realized that the demo is scary and the FEMA core lie was a powerful, simple implication filled fact and sought to separate that from the demo. Because of universalseed,org I've lost a reference to the concrete core and the separation I originally sought.



What I know about communicating is that one must get it down to the 8-second attention span. That's a tough call. It's one I've been trying to perfect for years. And you have my sympathy in regards to keeping anyone's focus beyond that 8 seconds. (The "Simpsons" does a wonderful illustration of the "8 second attention span".)
What were we talking about?

Consider the implications of working to communicate something when a crowd of unreaonable critices are present as compared to a number of supporters and the 8 second rule. Ever hear of "the delphi technique"? Well, I've had it used against me bigtime for years now and I can tell you it works better on the web than it does in person.

[royster]

Where I've been going with it is to find people that will use reason in analysis of the massive argument I've put forth on the web supporting the concrete core.

At this point if you google "concrete core" "WTC", you either find my web pages or my arguments on forums.

It used to be, about 2-3 years ago that you found universities, architectural site and engineering sites talking about the concrete core of the twin towers. However, they have been disapearing fast. Here is an example.

http://www.unc.edu/courses/2001fall/plan/006e/001/engineering/index.html

I had been using that link as text only and not a page call in .html from my first concrete core page, http://concretecore.741.com (http://concretecore.741.com/). The universalseed.org said they wouldn't list the page because there were so many popups. So I made another page on the same server where my demo page was. Without thinking about it, to make the page easier to use, I turned the text into a page call. Soon thereafter I get this message,

ERROR 404

The URL you requested was not found on this server.

The university web master was able to follow the page call back to my page then removed the file from their server. When it was text the viewer had to copy and paste. So I screwed up by trying to; 1. Conform to universalseed.orgs objection to popups. 2. By making the link active.

universalseed.org still will not list my concrete core page. The demo page is listed under "Academic Papers and Analyses". I had to link my concrete core page from the demo page which is something I did not want to do from the beginning.

http://www.universalseed.org/main.asp?CategoryID=6

I realized that the demo is scary and the FEMA core lie was a powerful, simple implication filled fact and sought to separate that from the demo. Because of universalseed,org I've lost a reference to the concrete core and the separation I originally sought.



Consider the implications of working to communicate something when a crowd of unreaonable critices are present as compared to a number of supporters and the 8 second rule. Ever hear of "the delphi technique"? Well, I've had it used against me bigtime for years now and I can tell you it works better on the web than it does in person.No; I have never heard of the Delphi Technnique. Have you ever heard of "the mesquito maneuver"?

[Christophera]

4. There is to be NO posting of articles that say any particular 9/11 site or 9/11 researcher is "Disinformation", or a "Gatekeeper". If you have doubts about a certain organization, or a certain researcher, then don't follow them, period.

From the "Rule Book".

I apologize Jon. I just found the rules today. I'd been looking for them in some of the site links in the header. I never even considered I might be violating one by posting this gatekeeping thread. Then you pointed it out and I started looking.

Duh! There they were posted in the forum. ADHD at work.

Another aspect makes me totally guilty of ignoring forum rules occasionally, even if I do find them.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get them to matter to me as much as my nations Constitution.

Do I need help?

[Christophera]

No; I have never heard of the Delphi Technnique. Have you ever heard of "the mesquito maneuver"?

OMG! Read this quick.

http://www.etherzone.com/2002/burn092302.shtml

I've been at public meetings in government buildings with professional facilitators and a salted audience running the Delphi Technique and it works. Totally derailed me when I had the basic support of 3 out of 40 people.

It was a meeting where a large percentage of the public was required to attend in order for the County to move administrative supervision of the local public access studio from the county, to a non profit they donate to. This meant that complaints were not dealt with on an official basis and the non profit staff could just lie to the county if complaints went over them wherein the county could dismiss the issues.

Later I learned that about 20% of those attending were county employees.

[royster]

I'm sure our posts will cross, here, but I submit that the metaphysical angle...which you have a bead on...is what is next. And people need this broken down to simple terms they can embrace. A joke every now and then let's them know you're just like them. We all need that reassurance. Yes; it's serious. But a part of chivalry is the abuility to laugh in the face of danger.

Some of the best jokes of all ages were never heard, because they were followed by the disater that prompted them.

[Christophera]

Another aspect makes me totally guilty of ignoring forum rules occasionally, even if I do find them.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get them to matter to me as much as my nations Constitution.

Do I need help?


No. You need to be heard. Then a decent community needs to take action.

Good, I feel much better.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

That is a 500 foot steel reinforced cast concrete tubular core.

Just had to say that. If I don't post that image and say "concrete core" for a few days, I get anxiety. Truth trip ya' know.

[thumper]

it's not called gatekeeping, it's called focusing on the important issues.

[Christophera]

it's not called gatekeeping, it's called focusing on the important issues.

What could be more important than an explanation for free fall?

Concrete can be freactured to fall instantly with a small amount of explosives while steel cannot.

Is it not important that FEMA misrepresents the construction of the towers or factors critical to explaining major issues like free fall?

[Christophera]

I'm sure our posts will cross, here, but I submit that the metaphysical angle...which you have a bead on...is what is next. And people need this broken down to simple terms they can embrace.

Or, ............ how the secrecy was created that allowed towers to be built with high explosives encapsulated in concrete.

The fact that everything but our short term memory is actually located in the unconscious and that control of the unconscious is not conscious, is the beginning of "simple terms".

Somehow I think that the concrete core or the FEMA lie will precede the public ability to deal with this issue. The deception concerning the core becomes the beginning of the reason or motive to want to know how such secrecy is fostered.


A joke every now and then let's them know you're just like them. We all need that reassurance. Yes; it's serious. But a part of chivalry is the abuility to laugh in the face of danger.

Some of the best jokes of all ages were never heard, because they were followed by the disaster that prompted them.

Those were jokes? I though they were prophecies filled with irony after the disaster.