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Gold9472
06-15-2006, 08:58 PM
Dear Police, And Military Personnel...

I'm writing you tonight in the hopes that, if in the future, you are asked to do something against your fellow citizens, that you please... take a deep breath, think about what it is that you're doing, and most importantly, question the morality of what it is you're being asked to do.

There is no shame in disobeying a direct order. If that order is not morally, and ethically justified, then it is your duty to disobey.

I don't know if you've read recently, but a man by the name of Ehren Watada (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10582) refused to deploy to Iraq.

His reason for doing so:

"I feel that we have been lied to and betrayed by this administration," Watada said Tuesday in a telephone interview from Fort Lewis. "It is the duty, the obligation of every soldier, and specifically the officers, to evaluate the legality, the truth behind every order” including the order to go to war."

You may have noticed that I addressed the 1st Lieutenant as a man before I addressed him as a soldier. My reason for doing so is because he is a man before he is a soldier. He is also a son. The son of a man who opposed the Vietnam War. He learned early on that you don't send soldiers to war for the wrong reasons. He is doing what he, and MANY others think is right.

For me, I know one of the main reasons I got involved in the 9/11 Truth Movement was because I was hit very hard by the deaths of all of those firemen, policemen, and port authority workers.

On the day of 9/11, I made this picture:

http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/blob:http://www.yourbbsucks.com/3884022a-f245-4899-bd23-7e80ced5f309

I still cry everytime I think about those brave men and women who did everything they could to save those people. If not for their efforts, 1000's more would have surely perished.

Here is a picture I use all the time to remind myself of what it is I'm fighting for. Who it is I'm fighting for.


http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/blob:http://www.yourbbsucks.com/3629fcfb-548b-4655-a174-cabaa7942847

And as for you soldiers... I devote a GREAT amount of time educating people on what's happening to you guys over there. I don't want you to be there. I want you to come home. You deserve better than this. It is not the Government's right to use you when it is unnecessary. HOW DARE THEY?!? How dare they put OTHER PEOPLES' sons, daughters, fathers, and mothers in jeopardy based on lies and deceit?!?

I was prompted to write this letter because some very interesting news was released today, and in the past few months.

Today, two stories broke that I think are very scary. "A federal judge in Brooklyn ruled yesterday that the government has wide latitude under immigration law to detain noncitizens on the basis of religion, race or national origin, and to hold them indefinitely without explanation. (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10750)" and the "Supreme Court made it easier Thursday for police to barge into homes and seize evidence without knocking or waiting. (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10774)"

That doesn't sound like America to me. That doesn't sound like the place I grew up where it is "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Granted, I know the focus is on "non-citizens", and "non-citizens" don't have those rights (even though they are people to, and deserve the same amount of respect as we do), but what's to stop them from crossing the line? Especially if another attack (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14) takes place?

Please, if the time comes when you are asked to do something that might be considered questionable, immoral, or unethical against your fellow citizens, think before you act.

Sincerely,

Jon Gold

Cloak & Swagger
06-15-2006, 09:19 PM
It is in the contract they sign; that they, if given a direct order shall fire upon US citizens. A recently enlisted soldier told a friend of mine about how he stared at that one part of the contract forever before signing.

AuGmENTor
06-15-2006, 09:29 PM
It is in the contract they sign; that they, if given a direct order shall fire upon US citizens. A recently enlisted soldier told a friend of mine about how he stared at that one part of the contract forever before signing.

That is nothing new... It's right in the oath you take when you deploy for permanent duty station. Agree to protect the United Stated from all enemies foreign and domestic. They leave the "enemies" part vauge to say the least. That is because it is THEY who define who our enemies are. Refusal of a direct order in wartime can result in the death penalty before a military tribunal.

AuGmENTor
06-15-2006, 09:32 PM
Personally, were I faced with it, I'd scag the guy who gave me the order to fire on my own ppl, and as many more as I could take out before they got me. It is so strange to see that typed by my fingers...I was a real gung-ho kinda guy back then. But I never thought about it in the terms I do now.

PhilosophyGenius
06-15-2006, 10:18 PM
One could argue that this sort of policy began with the constitution. That if your a soldier and refuse to go to war you could be legally exicuted. (If my history severs me correctly).

borepstein
06-16-2006, 03:14 PM
That is nothing new... It's right in the oath you take when you deploy for permanent duty station. Agree to protect the United Stated from all enemies foreign and domestic. They leave the "enemies" part vauge to say the least. That is because it is THEY who define who our enemies are. Refusal of a direct order in wartime can result in the death penalty before a military tribunal.

But if your ordering authority fraudulently misdefines the enemy, the order becomes null and void, and you do have a moral right to disobey it.

AuGmENTor
06-17-2006, 01:38 AM
But if your ordering authority fraudulently misdefines the enemy, the order becomes null and void, and you do have a moral right to disobey it.

I hate to correct you, and I must say I do agree with the concept behind what you say... However, In the oath you take, at no point is a democracy outlined, where you are free to exercise you own code of values. It clearly states that you will obey ALL orders given you by a superior officer, upto and including the commander of all armed forces, the president of the united states.


I, ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Funny in a country that renounces God in every respect, has left that in there.
Anyhoo, there it is friends, in blue and black. You volunteer to take that oath (well, for NOW you volunteer). You check your moral resposibility at the door to the MEPS center. In reflecting on my own military career, I wish I had never taken that particular oath. What you are talking about are revolutionaries. And in my opnion you are on the right track. I want to see the people resposible for all of this fry as much as anyone. But I don't feel this will happen with our current justice system, as this system has been corrupted of the years by special intrest specifically to ALLOW these things to happen. This is not a republican or democrat issue. The whole system is fucked. The government is easily 40% larger than it needs to be. I recall a document listing every mans freedoms as Life, Liberty, And the persuit of happiness. Nowhere in there does it say that it also includes phone taps, warrentless searches, asset forfiture, protection from alqeda,* make sure you wear your seatbelt, dont talk on your cell phone when your driving, well, you get the idea. The system has morphed into a system of control, and a switch of personell isn't going to fix it.

borepstein
06-17-2006, 04:01 AM
I, ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


Thanks, I know the text.

That's the point - against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Therein lies a gray area - what if someone you are told is an enemy is not? What if the officer telling you to confront that person knows that? Then it is that officer who is acting against the Constitution thus making himself an enemy of the said Constitution.

borepstein
06-17-2006, 04:10 AM
Granted, I know the focus is on "non-citizens", and "non-citizens" don't have those rights (even though they are people to, and deserve the same amount of respect as we do), but what's to stop them from crossing the line?

Spelling. even though they are people too

Gold9472
06-17-2006, 06:40 AM
What's the name of Clarke's book. "Against All Enemies". I think he was trying to tell us something about our Domestic enemies.

AuGmENTor
06-17-2006, 10:10 AM
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice...
This clears up your gray area, you follow the orders you are given, based on enemies percieved by your chain of command. The UCMJ provides a way to challenge an order, and its validity. That is by starting up your chain of command, typically your squad leader, depending on you rank. You still have to obey the standing order until such time as it has been deemed invalid. I can't imagine what the armed forces would be like if everyone enlisted picked and chose what orders they felt to be valid. I.E, I'm not driving this truckload of supplies to where I was ordered to, for I feel that the people being supplied are the real enemy, thus immoral.
I agree that this war is unjust and completely illeagal. I do not agree that everyone in the armed forces is supposed to listen to their guts. Were that the case, I don't think we'd have ever have won any of these wars, just and unjust alike.
Kind of a unique situation now, I'll grant you. For it seems they are in the command of a blood thirsty lunatic. I'm glad I am not faced with their choices.

borepstein
06-17-2006, 04:32 PM
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice...
This clears up your gray area, you follow the orders you are given, based on enemies percieved by your chain of command. The UCMJ provides a way to challenge an order, and its validity. That is by starting up your chain of command, typically your squad leader, depending on you rank. You still have to obey the standing order until such time as it has been deemed invalid. I can't imagine what the armed forces would be like if everyone enlisted picked and chose what orders they felt to be valid. I.E, I'm not driving this truckload of supplies to where I was ordered to, for I feel that the people being supplied are the real enemy, thus immoral.
I agree that this war is unjust and completely illeagal. I do not agree that everyone in the armed forces is supposed to listen to their guts. Were that the case, I don't think we'd have ever have won any of these wars, just and unjust alike.
Kind of a unique situation now, I'll grant you. For it seems they are in the command of a blood thirsty lunatic. I'm glad I am not faced with their choices.

Well, quite obviously you can't pick and choose orders in the battlefield. Yet before you get to the battlefield... That's complicated, too, but I think - at least from the moral perspective - if you refuse to deploy to the war in Iraq that can be acceptable.

AuGmENTor
06-17-2006, 06:18 PM
Technically I don't think it is acceptable to refuse deployment. Sad to say, I think the people who DO refuse don't have a legal leg to stand on. But I am totaly in their corner. I have both children and sibling who are of age to go... But luckily, they have a bit too much on the ball to even think about joining. I believe in defending our country, I did it. But not for this shameful outrage that is unfolding.

princesskittypoo
06-17-2006, 10:24 PM
did the people who ran from the draft finally get pardoned? talking about vietnam....

Gold9472
10-05-2008, 10:54 AM
bump